Flat colors on LCD-TV

[AnKo]

Hi there,

I'm new to this forum, though read the postings here almost every day for over a year or so. Great software, great forum and great communitie here! Thanks for all the information you all gave to me so far. But now I have a odd problem on with I like your advise.

Last week I burned a DVD with some 300 pictures I took on vacation after preparing this slideshow in PtE. When I played it back on my LCD TV the colors looked very "flat". All greens, reds and blue's look pale and even an bit grey. The pictures didn't sparkle anymore. As if summer looked like winter (if you know waht I mean).

My workflow is calibrated. I shoot with my Nikon D70 only in RAW-format. After that I correct the NEF's in Lightroom 1.2 and then convert them in batch to JPG's in best quality. I don't make any changes in resolution.

After this, and knowing the colormanagement problems of ATI (i have an 9800 XT 256 RAM videocard), I make the show in PtE. Previewing the show make the pictures look different because of my ATI-card, naturaly. I then burned the show from within PtE 5.03 the luxe (with Nero) on DVD, making DVD files.

Now I thought this ATI colormanagement problem should be of no influence when burning the show on DVD. Was I wrong or is there something I did wrong?

Could it be my LCD TV (connected to my Pioneer DVD-player with RGB-cables), while all normal DVD's and televisonprograms look just fine?

Can you help me out, please?

André

[bmccammon]

What color space are your images in... Adobe RGB (1998), sRGB, ProPhoto? That may be some of your problem. For general use I think that sRGB creates the least amount of issues with color when viewed on the web or on a DVD. Keep in mind that I'm color blind so listen to other advice you'll receive before listening to me. Good luck.

[AnKo]

Thanks for your fast reply bruce.

I have concerted all pictures to sRGB. When I mean 'flat' colors, I mean the 'vibriance' of the colors is lost on lcd screen. Not when viewed on monitor. So I think it has to do with my LCD. But since all looks normal on normal DVD's and television broadcastings I thought maybe this could have something to do with the way PtE handels with the colors while burning them on DVD.

So far I am a bit confuesed about this issue. It is quite frustrating to see normal looking pictures pixel sharp, but with loss of color.

André

[bmccammon]

I know that the colors on my Panasonic LCD HD TV look great when viewing programs created in PTE v5. There is a HUGE difference in the way that any commercial DVDs are prepared... much more expensive and intricate machines are used to burn the commercial DVDs. I don't know how to advise you but suspect that someone like Conflow will chime in with some ideas or observations that may make a difference for you. Good luck... and keep sharing your story so we can all benefit as you learn.

[nobeefstu]

André,

Your comment in 1st post:

I then burned the show from within PtE 5.03 the luxe (with Nero) on DVD, making DVD files.

Please clarify ... Are you using Video Builder or Nero to burn the DVD ?

Are you saying the DVD looks normal on your monitor when played from your PC ?

Have you made any other DVDs using PTE (not using the same pictures) with same flat/matte results ?

[Conflow]

Andre,

I have been looking at your Post and the replies concerning your poor HD Images on a TV Set.

I think you meant to say that the....Images are washed out...no Cromonance nor Luminance data

nor Highlights nor Shadow detail in the Images...am I correct ?

This problem is common in many LCD TV's~PC Setups, and there are many reasons why it happens.

You won't solve this problem by 'experimenting' with PTE and Burners and DVDs and settings etc,etc.

Forget about PTE for the time being until you resolve the cause of the problem and may I suggest

the following course of actions.

1)

Get a copy of a good 'Video Test Card' such as the Nokia Test Card shown below in the 'Attachment"

2)

You are using sRGB Setup for your Monitor. Adjust the sRGB-Settings as follows:-

Set the 'Brightness' to 30 and the 'Contrast' to 70. Now open the Video Test Card Program.

3)

With a Screen-Capture Tool capture a Screenshot of the 11.Bar GreyScale Tool and "Save As"

a Bitmap-Image use nothing else. Do the same for the MainScreen Tool and the ColouBar Tool.

Image Sizes should be about 1024x768 pixel ~ Max size not more than 2048x1536.

4)

With these 3 or 4 Images make a PTE Slideshow, each Image about 10/15 seconds each, No Music,

No Effects, but activate the Navigation Bar in PTE so you can go forward and back with the Images.

5)

Burn the Show to a standard CD-Disc and also a 2nd copy to a DVD-Disc.

DO NOT USE THE MAXIMUM BURNER SPEED ~ Use about ½ Speed Range for each Disc.

Now:-

Replay each Disc on your PC Monitor and take note of the results of each CD. (Monitor settings as above)

If there is anything wrong between the AVI rendering and the Burner product it will show up here.

Now

Replay the DVD through your Player to the LCD-TV (You will need to adjust the Brightness & Contrast)

Again observe the results as described above ~ any defects will show up in this part of the Test.

If all is well:- I would look at your origional Image Sizes or Burner Speed or RAW Conversion.

Note:-The dark shadow in the middle of the Test Card clearly shows ageing of my 21" Monitor.

Brian.Conflow.

P.s Sorry about that, the 2.9mB File would not upload as a BMP so PNG used instead.

[AnKo]

André,

Your comment in 1st post:

Please clarify ... Are you using Video Builder or Nero to burn the DVD ?

Are you saying the DVD looks normal on your monitor when played from your PC ?

Have you made any other DVDs using PTE (not using the same pictures) with same flat/matte results ?

Hi Nobeefstu,

I am using Video Builder, not Nero!. Sorry, I was confused because before PtE de Luxe I used Nero.

Yes, the the colors look normal on my monitor when played the DVD. In the past I made some DVD's (using PtE 5 beta (n) which I looked back last night. The colors look much better is these shows. Nevertheless, they are not as colorfull as when played on my PC. But I think that is normal.

By the way, my LCD is a Sharp Aquos.

André

[AnKo]

Thank you Bruce, I am shure this problem will be solved soon.

Brian, thanks for your complete guide to attack this problem.

You are right, when you said ....Images are washed out...no Cromonance nor Luminance data

nor Highlights nor Shadow detail in the Images...

This weekend I will perform your testing suggestions. But something confuses me here.

I have calibrated my monitor (IIyama hm903DT A 19") so output to my printer is quite good and comparing fotographs with my monitor is satisfying as well. When changing contrast and/or brightness I mess up the calibrated monitor profile? Anyway, its very much worth performing your suggested test.

I let you all know my results later on this weekend.

Thank you all for trying to understand and solve my problem. Great to be part of this PtE community!

André

[Ronniebootwest]

From a purely photographic standpoint, why have you chosen to use sRGB - this colour space is very limited when compared to Adobe RGB. Have you set your camera to sRGB as well?

I find that I get much more realistic coloure with the RGB colour space.

Ron

[Conflow]

Andre and Ronnie,

Andre, I appreciate that you have 'calibrated' your Monitor and it will be OK with your Printer which

you can run from 72.dpi to +300.dpi but these are Printer attributes solely. This has nothing to do with

your 'Monitor Resolution Calibration' where 1st. you must get the Brightness & Contrast set to ISO

Standard and to do this the Monitor must be capable of resolving the 13 Bar Grey Scale Test

and in perfecting that Test you will be 'forced' to adjust the Brightness & Contrast to achieve success.

The Monitor must be capable of resolving from Black(0%) to White(100%) but 5%~95% is adequate.

These Grey Scale Factors:- White to Black encompass all the visible Colours which make White

and consequently the 'Colour Luminance' is restored to normal.

Because you are running in "sRGB" I recommended that Brightness=30 and Contrast=70 because if

you switch the Monitor over to "Expert Mode" you will find the default Setting for Red-Green-Blue Bias

will be about 50 and the Gain for Red-Green-Blue will be about 50 and this mode recommends the

appropriate settings for the User-sRGB Mode.

In the "Expert Mode" you can adjust the "Chromonance" of each Colour (Bias & Gain Controls) so that

each of the 8.Box Colours are shown with equal Chromonance & Luminance. (Professionals use 16.Box)

This all assumes that your Monitor Focus and Convergence are correct. (So back to the Test Card)

Ronnie,

Andre is shooting his Pics in "RAW" and then correcting in Lightoom-1.2 down to JPegs. If he is using

Adobe Jpegs these have unnecessary 'scripts' embedded within the images and if you 'screen-capture'

a Test Card and save these images in Adobe-Jpegs you will find 'smear & ringing effects' when the Card

is reproduced on the Host Monitor.

Always better to use an uncompressed Format (Bitmap etc;) when using Test Cards.

You ask why "sRGB" rather than Adobe RGB -(well part of the answer is above)- Jpegs in sRGB are clean

compared to Jpegs in Adobe RGB ~and~ sRGB is associated with Monitor Expert Mode, which is adjustable

in all respects of Colour Bias & Gain and furthermore recommends the settings for the User sRGB Mode.

Lo-Cost Monitors:-

The 'Easy/Normal-Monitor Mode' is very limited to 3 Primary-Colour correction and all it adjusts is the

Colour Temperature (Brilliance) based on White Light from 5000K. ~ 6500k. and if this is set much above

5500K you get "Image Flaring' and Washout and general loss of detail and if you correct this with Brightness and Contrast Controls you reproduce the same 'defects' which Andre has described.

CRT Monitors are quite forgiving in this respect ~ LCD Monitors cant handle Colour-Temp much above

5500K so they are generally Factory pre-set.

ATI Graphic Cards:-

Some of these Cards have serious-problems which cant be corrected by altering the 'Firmware' because

the problems are associated with the Hardware Chip-Set. In my opinion these will never be corrected and

indeed I think the Manufacturer(s) never foresaw these problems in the first instance ~ time will tell.

Running a 'Test-Card' schedule as I described will very quickly show Andre whether its the ATI Card or

some other simple mal-adjustment.

Brian.Conflow.

[AnKo]

Ronnie,

Thanks for your reply. I understand your question very well and I agree with you. But I shoot only in RAW, so the colorspace is not important as long as I work in RAW. My camara is set on aRGB, but just in case I decide to shoot Jpg. Much more colorspace in aRGB.

After I reworked the RAW images with Lightroom 1.2, I convert them in Lightroom 1.2 to Jpg and sRGB.

Brian,

Thanks again for your clear explanation. I wil do the test as you discribed tomorow or/and sunday. Unfortunatly my work needs me a bit too much these days. It's give and take, I believe.

Be back here soon.

André

[AnKo]

Hi you all,

Today I did the test Bruce discribed And it solved my problems!!!

It all was a matter of contrast and brightness, just like Bruce said. But ... the problem was part of my calibration with my spyder2pro. Let me explain.

Using the software that comes with the Spider2pro I am able to set the luminance values for white and black. Since I read a dutch forum on colormanagement and standardisation of this issue I used the values they advised: 100 contrast and 0.2 for brightness. Using these values I am able to calibrate colors AND black and white (the grey's). Because of that my monitor had levels of 73 for contrast and 65 for brightness. Thats what caused my flat colors.

The test learned me this and I started reading these values when setting contrast to 70 and brightness to 30. This gave me compleet different vallues! After some experimenting I used value 120 for contrast and 0.15 for white while calibrating. Now my monitor reads a contrast of 92 and brightness of 23!!! Quite a difference.

When I looked at my fotographs with Lightroom they all looked flat and I had to rework them (in fact, there wasn't much to do, because the RAW images were quite alright) and convert them to Jpg again. Et voila, colors look much better now!

I also know now my monitor is not that good anymore. And my LCD TV is not of great quality. These are bottlenecks in my workflow, but time will come.

Bruce, you might still ask yourself why I am using my Spider2pro to calibrate the contrast and brightness. Well, I use this because it also calibrates the colors. But I did the contrast thing just wrong in the past.

So thank you very much for your test, Bruce. I learned a lot from it.

André

[Conflow]

Andre,

I am pleased that it worked out for you ~

Quote....Now my monitor reads a contrast of 92 and brightness of 23....Andre,thats not far off 83-29

which I personally use but I advised you 70-30 as a starting point.

Andre, you LCD Television ~ you said you are using RGB Input Connections ~ thats not a good idea as they

are composite Video Inputs and the losses are very high.

If your TV has a "Y.Cr.Cb Input" you would be well advised to get a "RGB Converter to Y.Cr.Cd Input" and

use that Converter to connect to the TV. The quality factor is at least 5/7 times improvement and if its an

LCD HD-Television the quality will be superb.

Brian.

Conflow Services.

[bmccammon]

Glad you got good results, Andre. In fairness, I did not provide you the test that gave you good results... Brian Conflow is the source for the info you used. He is a great resource to this forum and offers a deep technical background and experience in his replies. Like you, I learn from him frequently. Good luck!

Bruce

[AnKo]

Bruce, Brain,

Thanks for correcting me Bruce. Sorry for mixing you up !

So, thank you Brain for the test, it was of use to me. And thanks to all that replied on my question. As I said, this is a great communitie! And good to have experts in here, because PtE is worth good background information to get to best out of PtE. Only a good workflow is getting the 100% quality PtE can offer us.

As far as the values on my monitor: maybe I decide to get them a bit closer to 30-70, because contrast now is very high.

Brain, my RGB-cables are connected to the Analog RGB/PC/Component port (with a special connector) on my LCD TV. There is also a HDMI connector, which my DVD-player doesn's support. It's an 'old' player as all equipment after 3 years today. But I'll check it out and change it if its possible the way you advised.

By the way Brain, which is best of the 3: Scart, s-RGB, or componentcables connected to an Analog RGB/PC/Component port?

Thanks,

André

[Conflow]

Andre,

I would need more data on the 'Type of LCD-TV' before I could answer your Cable question and

whether it is using Component Video or Interlaced and what Croma System is it using (See below).

There is a major conflict in the TV Industry ~somewhat like the 'Betamax -V- Pal' debacle~

that took place some years ago.

We have the same scenario all over again and it boils down to 3 arguments,viz:-

1)

How do we accomodate existing VTR-Recorders and existing DVD Players with HD-Digital TV

with consideration to the current Analog Technology in use and the Digital Technology of Y-Pb-Pr being

used on recent DVD-Recorders which is incompatible with the newer Y-Cr-Cb Television System but is

compatible with most Commercial DVD-Discs ?

2)

How do we accomodate (New Technology) DVD-Recorders using the new Y-Cr-Cb Colour System which

is compatible with the new Digital Transmitters using Y-Cr-Cb but incompatible with other Video sources ?

3)

Then we have the New Plasma Display TV's ~ better Black/White resolution, better Colour rendition, and

brighter ~ which makes them more suitable for Home Theatre than the current crop of LCD-TV's.

To my knowledge there is one DVD-Recorder Manufacturer who is using a switchable 'Dual-System' and

I think its 'Sanyo'....you would need to check that out.

Andre, I don't see any resolution on the horizon in the near future for these conflicts of interests but sure

as hell the Television Stations who have invested and adopted the Y-Cr-Cb System are not going to change.

This creates a major dilema for PTE Users...and I don't know the answers...its a "Catch-22" situation.

Brian.Conflow.

[AnKo]

Andre,

I would need more data on the 'Type of LCD-TV' before I could answer your Cable question and

whether it is using Component Video or Interlaced and what Croma System is it using (See below).

Brian,

Thanks again for your complete explanation of development in this kind of industry. It's the old story over and over again. As for us, PtE users, we are searching for the best quality within our possibilities and finding this kind of non standardisation on our way. We have to live with this.

I wil not bother you with my question on cables and lcd TV because I dont even know the exact type anymore. I will experiment with the connections I am able to use and in case there are significant positif changes I will let you know.

Now I start to rework all my photographs the next days with my `reborn` CRT monitor. A hell of a job! But worth it.

André