verhoef Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Hi all,When I want to download a show, I always ask myself, which one to chose. I don't have a broadband connection so downloading takes always a while. So would it be an idea to give everyone the opportunity to rate a show after watching it. This is done with pictures on other sites like the famous http://daily.webshots.com. So these ratings will give an average idea of the show beeing interesting or not. Would that be in principle a good idea or not ? (of course without considering the difficulty of the programming of this feature for the webadministration)Michel Verhoef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanweb Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Michel,I like the idea, since currently it's not possible to know whether a show is worth spending time on or not. Looking at the number of downloads isn't a good indication of quality. However, it may still be good to have a place for people to post who are learning and looking for critique. Maybe split or identify high quality posts versus people just wanting to excercise their new skills. How to separate those is another question. On one of the digital photo contest sites, for example, judges are selected based upon their wins. Over ten wins qualifies them to judge other photos. The same principal could be applied here for categorizing shows. In any case, the idea has merit to rate the shows.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severn Bore Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I would support a rating for shows provided they are used constructively. One needs to keep in mind that viewers' tastes will differ, so a show regarded by some as a failure, might be regarded by others as a huge success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Image Suite Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Hi allWhilst I understand why members may like the idea that shows be 'rated' the audio-visual is an art form and like all art forms, opinion lies in the eyes of the beholder. Some members will be submitting nothing more than an electronic photo-album, and there is nothing wrong with that if that is their intention, but others will be judging them on their own standards of perhaps more conventional twin projector style audio-visual. Also, I am conscious that some newcomers to a/v will not submit work if they feel that they are going to get critiqued, and I'd sooner try and foster improvement. In addition, who is qualified to judge? Most of us at some time in our photographic involvement have experienced camera club judging with which we didn't agree.......and just because someone has attained RPS or some such letters, this does not necessarily make them a good judge in everyone's eyes, and nor does the fact that they may have won 10 internal competitions (which could be more because the standard of the remainder was poor).I have only been a member of this forum for a relatively short time, but I pretty much know whom of the members is setting the standards in my judgement..........so I am more likely to download their work than that of others.............that said..........we are all here to learn and we are all learning all the time......let's encourage more new a/v members to learn.The Image Suite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LumenLux Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 I am very interested in the opinions about this subject. I wish many people would jump in here with their thoughts. Myself, I'm not sure what is "best."I do know, that when I decide to post a show, I always would like some comments. I don't care what the comments are. I will either gain satisfaction from a comment, or I will try to learn something from it. I have always tried to encourage more discussion about posted shows.I also realize there are many reasons that I or others don't always make a comment. Sometimes I watch a very good show but would feel presumptious to say it is well done. It's almost like I or other viewers may feel we don't have the credentials to comment. When I see Michel, that you have posted a show, I know I want to watch it. Each time I expect that it will be artistically done. I will undoubtedly enjoy it. But what will I have as a comment? I know Michel is a very good photographer, I know you are an artist, but maybe all I can really say is I like it or it is not my favorite etc.I think also sometimes people would like to share a show, but hesitate because they know other people do "better" shows. Maybe a "rating" system would seem even more intimidating. Or maybe less intimidating?I know that there are so many purposes for creating a show. And often we do things the best we can justify for the purpose. I watch some very good shows that are great for a three minute message. Every slide is a piece of art. The transitions, the blending, the "third image", or other AV specialties, are all very appealing. But when I put together - say a travel report, or a 200 slide presentation - It is perhaps not only not feasible, but maybe not desireable to make the presentation so slick. But I still want to make the show as interesting and as "effective" as possible. I guess, if there were to be only two points of evaluation - or self evaluation - they might be 1. How effective is it for the creator's purpose? 2. How satisfying to the viewer? Or maybe there would be a hundred points on which to be rated.I think the best reason for a rating system might be not the rating itself, but if the rating system would generate and encourage more discussion. Because I think the discussion is what could be really helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Image Suite Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Hi LumenLuxI have to agree with your comments on this one........especially your comments about I wish more people would comment - (firstly, there are 1,200+ members on this forum and only a couple of dozen regulars who comment) and........"1. How effective is it for the creator's purpose? 2. How satisfying to the viewer? "The first one is easy to determine, the second very difficult. The viewers all have differing tastes and opinions and that's what makes us unique. In my commercial a/v work I am often faced with trying to satisfy not only the client but my client's prospects or existing customer base which can be very wide ranging indeed!I have started an interesting related forum on Bart's site Multi-Media Matrix in the Off Topic section regarding categorising the audio-visuals according to content..........take a peep. Such a move would then allow people to understand audio-visual to a greater degree and perhaps hone their skills on a structured basis - i.e. the newcomers may not wish to produce anything other than an electronic photo album in the first instance, whereas the purists would enter their shows in the category for 'conventional a/v' - this way the new a/vers get to learn about the differing styles and techniques in a much clearer and more structured way. The Image Suite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContaxMan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Not sure about this rating business. Experience in camera clubs shows that different people have quite different criteria that they use when assessing other peoples' work - not least the judges! I usually choose which shows to view by their subject matter so a synopsis of this would be much appreciated. Other than this, how about having just two categories:1. shows for critique and advice2. shows simply for enjoyment?Or just leave well alone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Cox Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Or  just leave well alone... ContaxMan, you said it very nicely ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Totally agree with ContaxMan.I have a very very slow connection so download smaller files only, and then sometimes have to sit up half the night!Can understand how some people would like feedback & it also might discourage others. Even judges can rate a sequence higher some evenings than others - depends how comfortable their seat is (only kidding) but different halls, sound etc give a sequence a very different "feel" in competitions & camera clubs etc. Casting aside our differences in what we enjoy, our monitors etc will also give us all different views. Main reason to enter competitions etc is to gain some feedback (often the best comes from audience members who will give you an honest reply & sometimes good advice). It's all about sharing your work and how much you want to change / improve what you do. But ContaxMan summed it all up very well. Very busy at the moment so better get back to my "work".Wishing everyone and especially all Welsh members here a very happy Saint David's Day tomorrow! We'll be celebrating wearing our daffodils, eating leeks , and drinking cawl along with something stronger I expect.Best wishesMaureen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContaxMan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Cawl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alrobin Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 See here: Cawl.I, too, do not go in much for AV competitions (although I helped judge one once). Except, maybe, as Maureen said, for the purpose of obtaining constructive feedback from audience and judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Happy Saint David's Day ! the Welsh equivalent of July 4th !I can see I'll have to make a sequence about it one day !Thanks for the recipe for cawl Al http://www.wales-calling.com/culture/st-david.htmSt David of Wales or Dewi Sant, was a saint of the Celtic Church. . . . David became the Abbot of St David's and died on 1st March 589. A.D. . . . "Therefore, Mar 1st = St Davids Day. ..........and the Welsh celebrate !cawl = traditional welsh broth with Welsh lamb and lots of vegetables especially leeks!It's our annual Camera Club AV competition on Thursday so nose to the grindstone this week.It's a sequence about Old Age.Hope I get feed back from lots in the audience, the wonderful thing about digital AV is sometimes a comment from another will pinpoint something you didn't see in your own sequence as you are so busy working on it. If you agree with their comment, it is much easier to alter something digitally than it was years ago with slide tape. You can now keep both the before and after sequences to check you prefer any changes.I think feedback is important but personally I prefer not to be rated. (I'd be bottom anyway! ) and I'd feel like I was in a competitive race. I prefer to stop and smell the roses than gallop aheadBack to the cawl cooking and searching for Welsh whisky. Love Maureen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoef Posted March 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Well, well what a barrage of opinions. I must say I am not surprised because this subject always seems to be very delicate and adrenaline rushing; the problem with me is that I am always looking for objective criteria in viewing such a subjective thing like a slide show.So I will rest this case, and will go on watching all what will be presented. Michel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALTJONES Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Having read these interesting views I fully agree with Contaxman ie separate the shows betwen those seeking critique and advice and those shows offered just for enjoyment. I too have download problems and have really no idea what to select. I am sure i miss some good ones as a result. The number of downloads is no indicator whatsover of quality. One thing is for sure there is a huge range of talent out there and a downloader needs to have some idea what is available!Could I suggest that Bill offer the presenter the choice of what category to enter. In any event something needs to happen to control the huge input.WALTJONES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooskidiver Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 I'm in agreement with ContaxMan, too. I think it would discourage new members from posting their shows. When new shows are uploaded to the Cottage and a post in PicturesToExe Presentations is made there is ample opportunity for viewers to express their likes and dislikes. I also think Bill has plenty to keep up with as it is. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 As was mentioned earlier, very few people will comment and number of downloads does not tell how good a show is. It's also hard to post opinions about a show you didn't like that was done by someone you do like. People are very nice on this forum. How about a pop up window link that has more of a description (by the creator) and list a category. Many shows on Beechbrook are scenic shows but then there are some with more of a theme. A distinction between the two would be helpful. The tutorials are obvious, of course, but a description on them would help also. Now all one has to go by is the sample picture which can be a bit misleading sometimes.~Cindy Singleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Cox Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 If Bill decides to pull the plug on his site where are you going to post your shows then - - is Michel going to pick up the slack??or maybe somebody else is going to host 300 mb's where the shows will be rated -- maybe there will be an area where comments or stars can be added for ranking??and who has the qualifications for the rating process -- i have +- 3 gb of members shows on my system -- remember the old saying "different strokes for different folks" or "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"All the shows i have downloaded are loved by someone and someone has put a lot of effort making the show -- who am I to say a certain show is of poor quality -- one can always learn by someone else's "mistakes".Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lyons Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Hi all, I've been watching this thread for a while, and a lot of good ideas have been put out. I like to hear comments on my work as I find that as you bring a show to compleation you need a cold eye to spot the cracks. The final mile is always the tricky one and it is easy to make do as a deadline comes for a competition or such. We amatures are lucky that we can choose to ignore the closing date and wait for the next one. I don't think that anyone would list a show as being bad. The members here are too willing to help you improve. Also if you take a review too seriously then you've missed the point. As Ken said "different strokes for different folks" Take whats said on board and see if it's benifical. We have a world forum here but perhaps some local groups could meet to learn or show. See what the UK A/V world is up to most months,Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Techman1 Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Hello all,I feel that a review process is very helpful. I too agree that maybe two seperate categories might be the way to go (one of which would welcome comments/feedback). We can all learn something from others and this would give us the opportunity to find out if our shows work effectively on many different systems. As it is today, we have to specifically ask if everyone would test it and comment on the results.I don't often have a lot of time to download and view every show. As it is, I just pick a few occasionally based on the subject and image used. I have learned a lot just watching some of these. Some really showcase the abilities of PTE, some allow me to see places in the world where I haven't traveled and some are like watching someone else's home movies (without the popcorn) .I appreciate all that submit their work and have enjoyed viewing the shows. Which ever method is decided upon, I would hope that it will continue to encourage people to submit their work.Have a great day!Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LumenLux Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 The final mile is always the tricky one and it is easy to make do as a deadline comes . . .Alan, you hit the nail on this one I think. I also just had a similar drift in an email exchange regarding my Eagle-Condor presentation.Hi,Very interesting presentation but it would have beenmuch better with a longer viewing time for every picture.Please take that as a constructive opinion.ClementThank you Clement. I actually remember your similar suggestion on an earlier Oregon show I put together. I guess that does not explain why, again, I made the view time too short. Perhaps I watch the show so many times while working on it, that I don't realize the time it takes to comprehend a photo the first (and often "only") time it is viewed by someone new. For this presentation, the sound track was my confining factor. But I could maybe remove some slides and still make it work to the controlling sound. Now, I realize I did not watch the show multiple times in preparation - I was too close to "deadline." and just ran out the door with it! Anyway, I appreciate your giving me your reaction. That is helpful.Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lathompson Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Ratings are of no benefit as this is art. If someone wants others to critique, ask for it openly on the forum and it will happen. That's great!Allow categories, such as sports, outdoors, travel or children. Anyone that sees a good show can extol their praises to others on the forum. Nobody should be allowed to criticize negatively unless invited to do so.Let's all look at each other's work randomly. Enjoy if for what it is and appreciate the greatest works along with all others that are good enough to be proudly exibited by their creators.I have not submitted anything at this time as I use this wonderful program in our business and generally stick to straight and simple shows. I doubt that my talent is more than modesly good, and frankly have no desire to put it into any category or have it critiqued by anyone other than the client I have made it for. I do enjoy downloading shows however and am amazed at all of you talented people. Random surprises are great. Keep it that way.You might call me a lurker. I visit everyday, 2 or 3 times. I rarely speak out, as there are numberous things to read and my time is pretty limited.Regardless of how bad or good a show might be I am reminded of a past auction sale for thousands of dollars, where the art sold was fraudulently represented as an artist's works. Turned out to be monkeys that did it! Sometimes, you can just do too much talking about art and I've always felt that if you like it, let someone know. If you don't, well, maybe you just shouldn't worry about it. After all, Picasso got rich putting both eyes on one side of his faces and selling stuff I've never understood the reason for. And thats okay.No societies please. Just keep making those great shows. I really enjoy seeing them.Larry T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lyons Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I think Larry's comments can be summed up by the old saying,'Every thing is art, it is the job of the artist to convince someone else" Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronniebootwest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Some threads generate a lot of comments - this is one of them and 'The Rhird Image' is another. There is nothing wrong with constructive critisism after all. I am new to this hobby and have only posred 3 of my early presentations. I had a lot of email contact with the members of this forum and they were always very helpful. Mostly they wanted to know how I did certain things (for example, opening titles with text effects). I am still being asked to produce a quick slide show of those effects, even now. It is all in thre magic of Photoshop. Equally I have had load of help from others in this forum, particularly Boxig and Hawk - I think that the only real way forward is to remember that we all want to learn and if we have something worth passing on - then let's do it. I agree with a 2 tier system, eg. one for enjoyment and the other for critique.Ron West Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lathompson Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ronnie, everything you said is good and as you point out, you are getting critiqued and plenty of suggestions right now. I see no need for separating those that want critcisim from those that MAY not. You can still get all the help and advice you want. Just ask for it.Keep it mixed, guys. BTW... Lumenlux, your show was very nice and moved along nicely. A little long, but well thought out. Absoultely great narration.Larry T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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