Camera Club Image judging

[Ronniebootwest]

I seem to remember a thread on this kind of thing but I cannot find it in the 'search' option. Maybe somebody will remember where it is.

A colleague has asked for some advice on using PTE to simulate a Camara Club image judging sequence. His idea is to use PTE to display up to 50 indivual images one at a time. Each image will remain on the screen until the next image is selected for display. The images will usually be displayed in a sequential manner, e.g. image 1, image 2 and so on. However there should be way of selecting a particular image that is out of sequence so that, if requested by the audience, a particular image can be recalled at will, e.g. by selecting its number. A simple fade transition would be required between each image selection.

Those of you who have attended a camera club will know the kind of thing I mean.

Any ideas and suggestions would be appreciated.

Ron

P.S. It would be useful to be able to create a template of the finished utility so that futgure imaged could simply be added to this template.

[cjdnzl]

I seem to remember a thread on this kind of thing but I cannot find it in the 'search' option. Maybe somebody will remember where it is.

A colleague has asked for some advice on using PTE to simulate a Camara Club image judging sequence. His idea is to use PTE to display up to 50 indivual images one at a time. Each image will remain on the screen until the next image is selected for display. The images will usually be displayed in a sequential manner, e.g. image 1, image 2 and so on. However there should be way of selecting a particular image that is out of sequence so that, if requested by the audience, a particular image can be recalled at will, e.g. by selecting its number. A simple fade transition would be required between each image selection.

Those of you who have attended a camera club will know the kind of thing I mean.

Any ideas and suggestions would be appreciated.

Ron

P.S. It would be useful to be able to create a template of the finished utility so that futgure imaged could simply be added to this template.

Hello Ronnie,

My camera club looked at doing something similar, actually to project an image as the judge delivered his comments while discussing the actual print. The rationale for this was so the audience could see the image in detail instead of trying to see an A4 print from 20 feet away.

The immediate problem that arose was that the data projector could not deliver the same image quality as the original print, and in fact the idea was abandoned on account of this. We were using an LCD projector, and probably a DLP machine may have been a bit better, but the conflicting requirements of light to see the print versus darkness to see the projected image also proved problematic.

Just using the projector and not showing the print was not too well received by exhibitors either, some making the point that the time and expense of producing an exhibition print was wasted if judging was to be done on a projected image. Couriering fifty or sixty prints to a judge each month is not exactly cheap, and some angst ensued when it was thought that only the digital images on a CD might be sent instead, which meant that the judge would not see the prints.

At any rate, the idea was dropped.

Colin

[Ed Overstreet]

Just using the projector and not showing the print was not too well received by exhibitors either, some making the point that the time and expense of producing an exhibition print was wasted if judging was to be done on a projected image. Couriering fifty or sixty prints to a judge each month is not exactly cheap, and some angst ensued when it was thought that only the digital images on a CD might be sent instead, which meant that the judge would not see the prints.

Colin

Our photo club has competitions with both prints and slides (almost all of the latter are digital, in the last competition out of about 60 competitors only one submitted film slides). For the judging, the judges view the actual prints (judging is at a separate meeting from the competition presentation to the club), but at the club presentation print images are displayed through a digital projector. Printers who printed from a digital file are strongly encouraged to submit a for-projection version of the original file, for this purpose (I don't know what proportion of print submissions are from digital files, but I suspect it's probably the majority). Other prints are photographed on a digital camera and those photos are displayed; these invariably are inferior to the appearance of the original print. However on the display night, all the original prints are on display on tables at the back of the room, and the audience is encouraged to view these during the break or before the meeting. Before digital projection, volunteers would hold prints over their heads and walk around the periphery of the audience so people could get a glance at them, but this was time-consuming and fell by the wayside once the club got a digital projector.

We've never used PTE to display competition images, a couple of members who are software engineers wrote specific software to do this, part of a larger process in which digital slides are submitted to a password-protected website which screens them for technical acceptability (pixel dimensions, colour space, file size etc). So I can't answer Ronnie's original question about how to use PTE to display images for a competition. My point is, while digital photos of prints are inevitably very disappointing and never do justice to the actual print, one can have one's cake and eat it too, in the manner just described. As our club has nearly 300 members, of whom maybe half or more turn out for competition evenings, the older way of displaying prints was less feasible. Though with 150 folks queueing up to view prints during a 15-minute break, things get a bit cramped, but there's no way around that really in a large club.

We are blessed with being part of a large recreation centre which has granted us a large expanse of wall space near the main entrance to the building as a print gallery; we typically have 15-20 prints on display at any given time, the exhibits being changed every month or so. This gives members (whether competitors or not) an opportunity to display their work in a venue that permits, indeed encourages, relaxed and careful examination of the prints at close range, behind glass frames to protect the prints from fingerprints and other carelessness by viewers.

[thedom]

Ron,

I never attended a camera club but is it what you would like (see file attached) ?

I very quiclky made the exe for 20 pics and the selection only works for pic01 to pic05 but you will get the idea...

I used exactly the same idea for my "Pick a card !" demo ...

50_pics.zip

[stonemason]

Hi Ron.

I have done quite a lot of research into competition software and it seems to me that most clubs seem to have "someone in the know" who puts together software to suite their own needs. My own club runs a national competition which attracts some 2500 entries slide and digital and we use a microsoft access database (we have a database "man in the know" in our club) to run the competition and to project via a third party viewer, the digital files. It seems to me that there is a demand for software for camera club competitions and with the wnsofts' teams expertise in slideshow and image manipulating software, a real opportunity to expand their product base. I'm sure that there are any number of people on this forum who could set out the capabilities such software would need to have. My club is in the process of moving all our internal projected image competitions over to digital so I shall watch this topic with interest.

Regards

Geoff

[davegee]

Gwynfa CC (one of the largest in the Welsh Photographic Federation) uses PTE very successfully for both Club Competitions and Inter-Club Competitions. Last Saturday saw the second PIXELS competition with four entries from each of 25 clubs from throughout Wales.

The advantage of using PTE is that the images can be shown at ACTUAL PIXELS - a very important consideration for this type of competition.

We have been running a Digital section in monthly competitions for around 3 years alongside Prints and Slides and the number of Slide entries has dwindled over the 3 years.

If you want more details or want to send someone along on the last Thursday in every month please feel free - you will get a warm welcome. You know where to get more details if you want them, Ron.

DaveG

[stonemason]

DaveG do you just use PTE to show the pictures, ie manual slide show or have you some way of recalling a particular image for award consideration?

Geoff

[denwell]

I have the dubious honour of making a PTE presentation of our club's monthly print competition (like Ed - with the original prints on view in the room).

But - as Ron and Geoff want to find out - is there a method of recalling the successful images at the end of the run of pictures? This would save me having to contact our judges in advance and 'dropping in' the winners etc. to the presentation.

I too will watch this one run!

DEN (NE UK)

[jfa]

Thanks Ron you have started a very timely thread for our CC.

We have had a large growth in prints over the last few years due to digital photography and have sufficient display space to use on judging night so we don't project them at all.

This was the last year of slide competitions as only 2 members have been regularly submitting to the competition. We now run a "projected image" competition, (most clubs in our part of the world also do), which in the new year will be all digital and the club is in the process of purchasing a digital projector, (we have begged or bowered up to now). I was hoping to use PTE to display the images and have been considering how we will do this.

The new function in PTE v5.1 "Wait for Mouse Click or Keyboard Press for Next Slide" to allow timed advance of image manually is a step in the right direction but selecting an image back or forward a number of places is the issue. Just now I have just downloaded DOMs trial and will test it.

I also will watch this thread with interest. Thanks again Ron, DOM and everyone.

[davegee]

Stonemason,

The judge is given a prepared PTE show 2 weeks in advance of the competition date along with the actual 1024x768 images for individual viewing in Photoshop etc. (I don’t necessarily agree with giving judges the individual pics but that’s the way it is done). At present, we are restricted to 1024x768 by the size of the projector in use but this will change in future.

It is a MANUAL show and is advanced by an operator on the competition night.

It is also possible to open PTE and run the whole thing in PREVIEW mode. If you have a situation where images are eliminated or you want to show highest scoring images etc it only takes a moment (or a tea/coffee break) to put the required images into a new show and run once again in preview. An alternative to a NEW show would be to remove the images not required and re-arrange the order (if required) using the “Fullscreen View of Slidelist”.

The only problematic images are those which are less than 1024 wide or less than 768 high because PTE defaults to “Fit to Screen” and therefore interpolates images upwards. If we were able to GLOBALLY set “Actual Pixels” it would make life MUCH easier.

DaveG

[stonemason]

DaveG we have a rule for digital images that says that they must be 1024 X 768 easily done by extending the canvas size in photoshop for portrait mode slides which are 768 high or landscape slides which are cropped to letterbox mode. There is a guide to re-sizing images on our web site at

http://www.rdps.co.uk/open/index.htm if any of your members would like to take a look. What we need is to be able to flag a particular image in a manual slide show say by pressing the "1" key to enable them to be called back but non flagged images be excluded. There is software available which will do this but it tends to be total image management software such as IView Media Pro but it's a large sledgehammer for a small nut. I'm hoping that Igor and the team will see this as an opportunity to increase the appeal of PTE by including these competition specific features in a future release.

Geoff

[denwell]

John

I use PTE v.4.8 for the presentations - this allows FULL manual forward and reverse control (WITH transitions preserved) using either keyboard or mouse. At the club we also have a handy USB radio presenter control (developed for MS Powerpoint) which the judge uses to move through the images.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the DOM's 'Pick-A-Card' project is the answer. I think it may need development by Igor and his team to achieve what's needed here.

DEN (NE UK)

[davegee]

Stonemason,

With regard to re-sizing, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink?

All members are fully conversant with Photoshop Techniques but most are Printers and not Digital workers.

It might take a while to get the concept fully home.

DaveG

[Ian]

At Wantage Camera Club we mainly use PTE to project images for both internal competitions and battles, including a successful series of international battles against the Camera Club of Ottawa arranged with forum member Al Robinson. The show is not created as an executable, but run from within PTE as a preview. That way if any slides have been held back you can simply switch to the 'lightbox' view, select the slide and press the spacebar to display it. No special programming is needed.

However, there are several bespoke programs that have been specifically written for camera club competitions, allowing scoring and sorting from within the program. Click here to see some of the programs that other CACC clubs are using.

Ian

[davegee]

Ian,

Could I ask what the "arrangements" are regarding resolution of submissions and also the resolution of your projector there?

DaveG

[xahu34]

Hello,

don't you think that IrfanView were a possible solution. You can use the thumbnail view of a particular folder as a lightbox (possible thumbnail sizes from 50x50 to 800x800). Using mouse and shift/control you can select any subset of images, which then can be shown as a slideshow (file menu or right mouse key). In the main appication, shows can be configured in many ways (manual advancement, alpha blending, display options etc.)

Regards,

xahu34

Munich

[Ian]

Hi Dave

The projector is XGA, so we have a recommendation that images are sized at 1024 pixels wide. Most people adhere to this, but if they don't we project whatever image size they have supplied. The only stipulation we have is that it must be saved as a jpg.

Ian

[cjdnzl]

Well, I'm somewhat taken aback by these posts talking about limiting digital images to XGA dimensions, 1024x768 pixels. Is this rule applied to prints made for competitions, or only for digital projection derived from an exhibition print?

Most exhibitors of prints in our club are using 8 or 10 megapixel cameras, and their prints are in the range of 2,500 x 3,500 pixels, myself included, and there would be a riot if they were limited to 1024x768 prints.

Please tell me that you don't limit prints to these dimensions.

Colin

[davegee]

Ian,

In the case of those images NOT 1024 - do you project at "fit to screen" or "actual pixels".

DaveG

[Ronniebootwest]

However, there are several bespoke programs that have been specifically written for camera club competitions, allowing scoring and sorting from within the program. Click here to see some of the programs that other CACC clubs are using.

Ian

Hello Ian,

I was very interested in the software links that you provided so downloaded the trials for each of them. They are very good but seem to be a bit 'over the top' for simple competitions. Does your club actually use any one of these or do you just use PTE in some form or another please?

Ron

[Ronniebootwest]

Ron,

I never attended a camera club but is it what you would like (see file attached) ?

I very quiclky made the exe for 20 pics and the selection only works for pic01 to pic05 but you will get the idea...

I used exactly the same idea for my "Pick a card !" demo ...

Hello Dom,

This idea is well worth considering and might be something that can be developed further. I assume that the user will be able to pick an image with the mouse (just like your 'Pic A Card' demo).

Ron

[Ian]

To answer some of the queries above:

Colin - this info only refers tp projected images. The resolution required for prints is quite different. We do however use a camera to do a live capture of the print during print competitions, and this is projected on to a large screen while the judge comments on the original print.

Dave - we set PTE to 'fill screen' with the images. Most members submit images 1024 pixels wide anyway, and we haven't had any that are smaller then this. I guess its the same principle as when entrants used to submit 35mm slides - if any arrive crooked or dusty then that's how they would get projected!

Ron - we generally use PTE as this will cater for our requirements. However, we have run some tests on Film Free Projection when it was in beta release, and have also hosted a large inter-club federation competition using the EasyComp software (the author of this is in the CACC so provided the software to run the competition).

Ian

[davegee]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the replies. I don't think that "fit to screen" is a problem with "oversized" entries, however if an entry is undersized fitting to screen can produce a pixilated result. On the one occasion when we were faced with this problem we used actual pixels and displayed the image on part of the 1024x768 screen.

I will probably be seeing you in the near future in this neck of the woods and will introduce myself.

DaveG

[Ian]

Hi Ian,

I will probably be seeing you in the near future in this neck of the woods and will introduce myself.

DaveG

Hi Dave

I'm actually doing a seminar on PTE at Talbot Green next Sunday, which I believe is where Gwynfor CC meet anyway. Come along if you're around!

Ian

[bjc]

Just out of interest (and maybe just as a stop-gap measure) Adobe Bridge (CS3) can be used very effectively as an image judging platform for knock-out competitions.

In ‘Slideshow’ mode (manual forwarding) images can be ‘scored’, via keyboard input, using the numbers 1 to 5 (star ratings) - plus four colour ‘label’ options (using the keyboard numbers 6 to 9) – giving a total of nine distinct ‘scores’.

The above can be expanded to 29 distinct scores if a combination of ‘star ratings’ plus coloured ‘labels’ were brought into play.

Bridge can be set to display only the un-rated and/or un-labelled images, thereby automatically removing ‘scored’ images from the slideshow when viewing for subsequent rounds.

Subsequently, back in the standard folder view of Bridge CS3, ‘scored’ images can be viewed in isolation, in accordance with their star rating, label colour etc. etc., enabling a count-up of the scores that have given to be worked out for the final result.

This might not be an ideal, purpose-built, solution to the question at hand, but it does offer a highly practical and functional alternative (for the time being), and it does ‘work’ rather well.

bjc