Does PTE use (manage) ICC profiles ?

[Gérard de Lux]

We have a tight debate going on our French 'DiaporamaForum' about this simple question: Does PTE manage ICC profiles incorporated in images?

Or - is there a way to attribute a different ICC profile to an entire slideshow, before producing the exe file (as Proshow Producer does) ?

According to a quick test made by one forum member, PTE doesn't read or use the ICC Profiles. If it did, in this short .exe file [see this example], the appearance of the 3 images should change according to the integrated profile... but the 3 images apparently remain the same...

So - does PTE really use/read/manage color profiles or not ?

Is it possible to assign a specific color profile to an entire show? If not, is this foreseen for the next version of PTE or someday in the future?

[AnKo]

I might be very wrong, but I believe there is no use for PtE using ICC-colorprifiles. That is because any sort of output from PtE is always displayed on monitors, (LCD) TV's and beamers which are only capable of working in sRGB, as Windows XP does. For that reason a picture with an other colorprofile then sRGB will display incorrect on screen in PtE.

Using a different colorprofile on your photo's can be usefull in the developmant fase when working in a other (bigger) colorspace, searching for- and working on- the right colors and working on perfect prints as part of colormanagement. This has to do with gamuts, but I guess you already know.

But as I said, I might be completely wrong.

Regards,

André

[xahu34]

Hello,

sRGB is (as far as I know) the appropriate space for presentations. On the other hand, many photographers like it to work with other spaces like AdobeRGB. Pictures with AdobeRGB look different when using PTE or IrfanView than they look in Photoshop. So, it might be a nice feature if PTE would offer the option (like m.objects does) to map other color spaces to sRGB.

Kind regards

xahu34

Munich

[potwnc]

any sort of output from PtE is always displayed on monitors, (LCD) TV's and beamers which are only capable of working in sRGB

André

André,

That's not always true. There are HDTVs that can work in other color spaces. If I am targetting a Blu-ray disc for my medium I will save the photos in NTSC (for N. America) or HDTV profile. Also, many video codecs can be configured as to the color profile output.

[fma38]

Hello,

I'm the french guy who started the thread on Diaporama@forum, about ICC profil and PTE. I'm not a PTE user (because it does not work under linux!), but I'm in a photo-club where a lot of people use it.

You seems to beleive that there is no need for PTE to manage profils; I can't agree! First, users may want to import images from differents color spaces (sRGB is the most common, but a lot of people use AdobeRGB1998, or other color spaces), and it should be nice to have PTE automatically convert all images in a common working space (sRGB, or any other color space users may want to use).

Second, about output, you also think that all monitors/beamers are in sRGB: this is wrong! As someone mentionned, there are totally different spaces, like NTSC or HDTV, and even with standard beamers, they rarely map sRGB. The one we get at our club is for from it. When using an app. which manages display profils, results are totally different: colors are more saturated, much closer to what we can see on our monitors.

So, I think PTE should manage profils, like it is done in Gimp/Photoshop.

But it may be not easy to do, as converting images from one space to another needs a lot of computations. Can it be done 'on-the-fly'? Only developers can answer, as I don't know how things work inside. But as I understood, PTE now uses the video card for transitions (through OpenGL, or Windows equivalent), so the CPU could be able to do that (maybe not on HD images).

At least, it may work like Proshow Producer, which is able to generate the final .exe using the display profil. But this is not really a good method, as it needs a new .exe for each presentation. If 'on-the-fly' conversion can't be done, PTE could include a color-conversion engine in the .exe, allowing the user to re-generate a new .exe from the first one, using a new display profil (this could even be automatic, done the first time the .exe is launch, using the system-wide defined display profile).

What do you think about?

[cjdnzl]

My understanding is that PTE does respect the ICC profile and gamma as applied to the monitor or projector showing the program, so if the monitor or projector is calibrated, and the slide show images are from a calibrated/profiled source, the images should display properly.

I don't think PTE does color space conversions 'on the fly', so to speak, nor do I believe it should. PTE's function is to assemble and display images as supplied by the author without altering color space or balance in any way. A calibrated monitor or projector will show the proper colors - and if it doesn't, it certainly isn't PTE's fault. If the author of the program is working with an uncalibrated monitor when fine-tuning the images, or using aRGB or other color space for images that will be presented on equipment calibrated for sRGB then the final show color balance can be anywhere. Unfortunately, owing the the relative expense of hardware profiling equipment, many rely on visual calibration with Adobe Gamma or similar programs, at best a compromise.

DVD's are a different kettle of fish; the color balance of a TV is set by the technician who sets it up, often just by eye in the field. PTE DVD's cannot be expected to compensate for TV variations. One only has to look at the banks of TVs displayed in the stores to see massive variations in color, contrast, and brightness among the various models.

There is a problem with (some?) ATI graphics cards and/or drivers, which in essence prevents PTE from using the monitor profile, the graphics output then being effectively uncalibrated. ATI reportedly appear to be somewhat uncooperative when requested to fix this problem. For more information, use the search function in this forum.

Nvidia graphics cards do not have this anomalous response, and if building or buying a computer, or replacing a graphics card, bear this in mind when choosing your card.

Colin

[AnKo]

I'd like to point all ATI users on the ATI gamma/profile solotion that is available on the internet right now. I mentioned it before, but it seems not been read. Look at this site: http://omegadrivers.net/ati_winxp.php. Beneath you can download "repaired" ATI drivers, based on the 7.12 drivers from ATI. They are very very good and solving the known AGP problems as well.

Colormanagement is very difficult but it seems even more complicated then I thought. I created a colormanaged workflow working in Lightroom/Bridge/PS CS3 in which I use the ProPhotoRGB-colorspace. For PtE use I convert the photo's to sRGB colorspace in Lightroom (or PS).

PtE isn't part of my colormanaged workflow because (as far as I know) it can't handle colorspaces the way PS does. But it would be great to make PtE part of my colormanaged workflow as output (like a printer)! I hope you understand wath I mean.

Kind regards,

André

[MikeV99]

Colormanagement is very difficult but it seems even more complicated then I thought. I created a colormanaged workflow working in Lightroom/Bridge/PS CS3 in which I use the ProPhotoRGB-colorspace. For PtE use I convert the photo's to sRGB colorspace in Lightroom (or PS).

What other setting should one use when exporting images using Lightroom for use in P2E (jpeg quality @ 100, sRGB, Resize ?, Resolution ?)?

Thanks

Mike

[fh1805]

Mike,

When converting images for PTE you need to consider your final output device. If this is going to be a digital projector then resize to the native resolution of that device (e.g. 1024x768). Resolution, in terms of dpi, is meaningless when projecting or viewing on the compute monitor. All that matters is size (expressed as pixels by pixels). If the final device is to be DVD for TV viewing then, I'm sorry, but you'll have to wait for someone with appropriate experience to answer your post.

[AnKo]

Mike, Peter,

Actualy, some time ago I prepared a .exe demo of PtE (with PZR) to be projected on a beamer (digital projecter?) just the way I always do. Except for changing the colorspace to sRGB for the jpg's I kept the original resolution of the D70: ~ 2000 x 3000, jpg quality at 100%. This projected with the beamer (native resolution 1024 x 768) gave, in my opinion, a perfect result. I believe the only reason for downsizing the resolution is to keep the presentation/exe small. But it could be different when playing a DVD prepared slideshow on a beamer.

There are many discussions on this forum about the best resolution to use. I like the large resolution because of the advantages when zooming or panning in PtE. As Peter explained, you should keep in mind the final output device. Personaly I make mostly DVD's as final product, for which I keep the original resolution.

Kind regards,

André

[MikeV99]

André,

Thank you for the advice. I have got to come up with a scheme for managing my image formats (both for within CS3 and then later in PTE).

Within Bridge/CS3 and for camera raw I most likely will save as psd or dng. For jpeg I can do the same or save as tiff (I have been told that tiff has less loss than save as jpeg).

When I prepare files for input to PTE I suspect I would need to convert them to jpeg. Based on your comments, I will try sRGB and original resolution (as done within CS3).

Thanks,

Mike

[AnKo]

Mike,

To me, working with NEF's in Lightroom, has only 2 purposes: making good prints & making slideshows with Pte. Lightroom lets you print the NEF (RAW-file) directly, so no need for saving them as psd/dng/tiff. As said before, for use with PtE, Lightroom can convert the NEF's easy to JPG/TIFF.

When I want to "rework" pictures in PS, depending of the final output source, I should choose DNG/TIFF for printing purposes (quality) and JPG for PtE use. DNG/TIFF because PSD is not as compatible as DNG or TIFF, and JPG for PtE because there is always some loss of quality when producing an .exe or DVD/AVI as final product and therefore I don't believe the difference between TIFF and JPG is visuel on screen (I just learned that PtE cannot use TIFF) (also TIFF files are much larger then JPG).

All,

Our hobby is more complicated than it looks. That makes it fun too! This discussion was started with questions about colormanagement within PtE. FMA38 mentioned the colorspaces HDTV and NTCS as "output" in PtE. What I do not understand is why we should convert a colorprofile for photo's (sRGB/aRGB,ProPhotoRGB,etc) to the colorspaces like HDTV or NTCS. Because I feel one should also "develop" these photo's in that same colorspace to get proper results and those colorspaces will be (much) smaller then aRGB or ProPhotoRGB. Can anyone explain this to me, please?

Kind regards,

André

[MikeV99]

André,

Thanks, that resolves the Lightroom file format in my mind (raw/dng for printing and PS editing; jpeg max quality export, no resolution change for PTE).

Colorspace: From what I have read?

For RAW save as 16 bit ProPhoto (Lightroom default) for CS3 editing and Lightroom printing.

My camera is set to take Adobe RGB with jpegs. Hence, for editing in CS3 and printing in Lightroom, I will keep that format.

Files exported for use in PTE, convert to sRGB.

I have no idea about colorspace once I am using PTE since I barely know how to spell PTE.

Mike

[AnKo]

Mike,

As far as I know, RAW images do not have a colorprofile. The colorprofile that can be set on the camera (like you, I use aRGB) is only used when shooting JPG's (or TIFF) or the JPG's that are produced by the camera next to the RAW images. But when you convert the RAW image to an other format (JPG/TIFF) in PS/LR a colorprofile will be included (I don't know this for DNG).

Using ProPhotoRGB provides us the largest colorspace to work in. Many people will tell us that this is of no use, because most printers (and monitors/websites) can only handle sRGB (or even less) which colorspace is again smaller. But, as long as you let PS/LR control the output to the printer, PS will shift the ProPhotoRGB colorspace as best as possible to the sRGB colorspace. That can solve gamut problems while we are able to control the colors even better in PS. So working this way when editting your images in PS has advantages.

Don't forget to set LS and PS to the ProPhotoRGB colorspace and check on the 3 warnings! You can use the softproofing in PS to see the gamut changes in the output colorprofile. Complicated, but there is much to read about this in books and on the internet.

For the best quality you should save your RAW images in the same bits as they were taken. If your camera produce 16 bits images, save them as 16 bit.

In the end when you like to use the images in PtE I convert them to JPG, 100% quality, NO resolution changes and sRGB as colorprofile.

Now, as Colin mentioned above, I bet your next problem will be a calibrated workspace which start with a calibrated monitor. The beginning of colormanagement. So there is a whole world to explore. Have fun.

kind regards,

André