UK Village Halls

[Mike Reed]

Has anybody come across this one before?

I was to do a show in a Church hall but was told I had to have a Portable Appliance Testing certificate for my electrical equipment as otherwise I would invalidate the halls insurance.

Doe anybody know how I get one and what it might cost?

The Nanny State again or fear of ambulance chaing Solicitors!!

[Ken Cox]

Mike

i had a similar experience when i brought my computer to the hospital - their inhouse IT dept., verified that it had passed CSA standards

http://www.csa.ca/De...anguage=english

and that the applicable CSA labels were in place

also

they would not allow extension cords but powerbars were allowed

ken

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Mike

PMessage sent on the subject.

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Mike,

I've never experienced this in the north-east of the UK but if I did, I know what my reaction would likely be:

"If your electricity supply is so inadequately protected that you need to impose that rule on me, there is no way I am going to put any of my equipment at risk by plugging it into your supply. Show me your certificate that guarantees your supply will not deliver any surges that will damage my equipment."

regards,

Peter

[Conflow]

Mike,

You wrote..."I was to do a show in a Church Hall but was told I had to have a Portable Appliance Testing Certificate for my electrical

equipment as otherwise I would invalidate the Halls Insurance".....

This is a load of "old rubbish" and whoever said that to you knows nothing about Electrical Appliances !! and is simply exercising a

self assumed authoratiive pose without no substance nor knowledge of what they are talking about...."Posers"

The "Portable Appliance Testing Certificate" is only applicable to those in a Professional Trade such as Electricians, Plummers

and Contractors so as to assure that they are using 'Certified Power Tools' which (On Site) demands the usage of 110.Volt Appliances

even in the E.U and UK and the USA. These products must bear the CE Mark and the UR Mark and an IEC/BSI Specification Numbers

and will be clearly marked 110.Volt-Usage which is proof enough that the Product has passed its Certification Testing.

The purpose of all this is to assure the Insurance Company that they will not be liable for 3rd.Party Claims as a consequence of work

persons and the public using defective/non-approved Tools in a DIY capacity or on a Worksite.

By the way the "Portable Appliance Testing Certificate" is solely issued to the Manufacturer not the public, but can be requested for a

fee from the Manufacturer.

Concerning 'Domestic Goods & Appliances' ~ Computers/Projectors/TV & Radio/White Goods/ ~ these are all covered by the CE.Mark

and IEC/UL/UR and BSI Kitemarks and if they are not satisfied a little call from your Local Electric Supply Utility will put an end to that

nonsence....SHOW THEM THESE MARKINGS on your equipment, if they don't accept that, tell them to expect a call from the Electric Utility

which has a little more 'punch' than the Local-Insurance Company Ltd.

Have fun on your next visit to that Church Hall.

Brian.Conflow.

[baldsparky]

Hi

Brian I'm not sure that what you are saying is altogether true, please forgive me if I have misunderstood what you have said in your previous post, the following is just an example of what I have found in my work.

I am an electrician living in the UK and I have been involved with PAT testing (portable appliance testing) in factories, offices, universities and various other places of work. the customer's usually request this to comply with health and safety regulations and because their insurance companies require it, and in the case of the general public having access to these appliances, it is to make sure that they are safe to use.

Depending on what type of appliance is tested, depends on how often the appliance is tested.

When we go into a factory say, the appliances belonging to the company have to be tested, and if employees of the company have brought in any electrical appliances from home, a portable radio or kettle for example the company insist that the appliances are tested or that they take the appliances home, again because of health and safety and insurance requirements.

It is amazing what you do come across by the way, Brian you are quite right about the various manufacturers marks but the PAT testing covers the damage we as consumers might have caused since it left the manufacturers. For example, damaged flexes, broken plug tops, bare wires, loose wires, wrong size fuses, all of which can be a danger to the public.

Mike, you should be able to find an electrician locally (local paper, yellow pages perhaps) who has a PAT tester who will be able to test your equipment and furnish you with the necessary paperwork.

As to cost, well how long is a piece of string. I have heard of prices between £1.50 - £4 per item, usually depending on how many items need to be tested, if you could get the items to them that may also make it cheaper.

Not sure if this helps, or that I have explained myself very well.

kind regards

paul

[Ken Cox]

an addition to my note,

When i was a working man

at my place of employment, for any vessel entry or where continuous gas testing was involved --if portable power tools etc were to be used we had to test them with a GFI before we could sign the permit and they had to plug them into a GFI device located outside the vessel

now, I can see where the church is coming from and the hospital -- they do not know whether the specific device was built to the "standard" -- mom and pop shops/ or self built equipment

the CSA seal is a start that it was built properly to all safe standards

ken

[davegee]

Paul's description fits in with my experiences when I was working at University.

Everything new or brought in by an employee required PAT before being used.

I see no reason why the village hall who are requesting this would not be right in asking for it.

Some do and others are not as aware of its implications. It is a bit like having your projector/laptop MOT'd annually - it is not invasive and takes literally minutes.

DaveG

[Mike Reed]

Has anybody come across this one before?

I was to do a show in a Church hall but was told I had to have a Portable Appliance Testing certificate for my electrical equipment as otherwise I would invalidate the halls insurance.

Doe anybody know how I get one and what it might cost?

The Nanny State again or fear of ambulance chaing Solicitors!!

Thanks everybody for your helpful comments. It seems as though it better be done for no other reason than to protect myself.

[Conflow]

Mike and All,

My reply was perhaps 'over simplistic' but here in Ireland we have the (ETCI )Electro Technical Council Ireland, who make

sure of 3 things:- (1) All Electricians must be Qualified and Registered with the Council before work can be undertaken on

any Site. (2) All site installations even our Church Halls must be signed-off as Compliant with all National & European Electrical

Safety Standards and that includes all our Houses etc,etc. There are no exceptions,see the following:-

(3) The premises themselves must be Electrically Safe for Public Usage and must be Fully-Fused complete with Overload

Relays and equipped with RCB's (residual current circuit breakers) and ELCB's (earth leakage circuit breakers) so in the event

that any appliance has a 'dicky' Mains cable etc ~ that circuit simply trips out 'isolating' that appliance thus protecting everyone.

(In Wales and U.K North I have seen installations which rely on Fuses and nothing else ~ very dangerous and Non-EC compliant)

My point is:-

I agree, other Countries have variations on these requirements such as the (OTT) U.K PAT System which I have just learnt about.

But at the end of the day seeing as the E.C has made sure the Appliance's are safe ~ surely its up to the Church Hall to make sure

it's installations are Electrically safe for Public-Usage and stop using this nanny excuse of a PAT Test on everything brought in.

(That's simply passing the Book and its open to fraud).

What's to stop them asking for a 'PAT' on my Electric-Razor or Camera-Charger or my Laptop-PC or someone passing a local 'lecki'

a few pounds for a 'dodgy' Cert ?....absolutely ridiculous.

If I were Mike I would ask to see their 'Electrical Compliance Cert' before I would commit my expensive AV.Equipment to usage

on their Mains Supply of unknown Certification,if any ?.....Mike also has Civic Rights as Peter has confirmed in his #4 Post above.

It's my opinion that Camera Clubs should insist on seeing the 'Electrical Compliance Cert' of the any (visited) Venue if only for the

safety of its own Members and its own Insurance liabilities.

That's all...

Brian.

[baldsparky]

Hi

Brian you are quite correct about the premises themselves needing to have a safety certificate, but that is to ensure that the electrical installation itself is safe, not any electrical appliances that are plugged into them, that is where PAT testing comes in, to make sure the appliances themselves are safe to use.

Let's say, for example, you go into some premises with your extension lead and or any other electrical equipment and because you have arrived late you ask someone to help you set up, and although highly unlikely, but it still does happen that whilst plugging in something to the socket the plug top falls off and the person gets across the supply and receives an electric shock, no one would want that to happen, and PAT testing is there to try and reduce the risk of this happening.

Whilst thinking about this, it raises another question in the back of my mind, and perhaps someone with a greter knowledge of these things could give the correct answer, if the above scenario occurs and the person who has received the electric shock decides to sue you, does the premises insurance cover you, or would you have to have your own public liability insurance?

Kind regards

paul

[davegee]

This whole discussion seems to be a pointless excercise.

But, just to put things in perspective, a lot of (if not all/most) village halls/community centres are maintained by and share the same insurance as their local council.

If the local safety officer wishes to enforce the letter of the law he is well within his rights to do so and, yes, if he wants to see the PAT certificate for an item brought in he is entitled to do so but that duty is usually passed on to the people who run the hall on a daily basis. Failure to comply could possibly mean the closure of the hall for public meetings so a little bit of sense is required.

Worse case scenario: someone is fataly electrocuted by a bit of gear brought in by a visiting lecturer which did not have PAT certification.

The insurance is invalid and someone is made responsible in a court of law. You can be sure that person is not going to be the visiting lecturer so can you blame the people running the place for being cautious?

I don't!

That's all.......

DaveG

[baldsparky]

Hi Dave

sorry you feel this is pointless, that's probably my fault, i'll be careful which topics I take part in in future.

kind regards

paul

[Conflow]

Paul,

In that case a 30.mA ELCB-Relay (if installed) would pop-out immediately ~ thats an E.U.Regulations' device ~ and its Law here

in Ireland and must be fitted as in other (Full-Member) E.U Countries. In fact if you buy any E.U.Multi-Outlet Adaptors from Aldi

or Lidl they come complete with an internal ELCB fitted. I'm sure there are other places where one can get this E.U approved

Multi-Outlet, its an absolutely vital piece of 'Kit' for AV Demonstrators.

On the funny side of things I wouldn't be writing this except for ELCB's ~ I have lost count of the number of near 'misses' I have

incurred in my Business ~ sad to say many Electricians haven't been so lucky.

On the Insurance issue (in Ireland) both parties must have 3.rd Party Liability Insurance, the Venue, and its Exibitor, if Commercial.

If it's an 'enthusiast' who is Demonstrating/Exhibiting the onus is on the Venue to insure its installations are Earth/Leakage proof and

compliant with regulatory Standards and that person would be considered as a member of the public. It would be near impossible for

them to prove 'negligence' of the Venues' Electrical Installations in face of a current Electrical Compliance Certificate.

It's the reason for the existance of ELCB device's even in the Home and for usage of Domestic/Garden Appliances and my heavens

did we have 'abuses' in Ireland before they were made mandatory in Installations.

Not sure if its the same in the U.K.

Brain.

[baldsparky]

On the funny side of things I wouldn't be writing this except for ELCB's ~ I have lost count of the number of near 'misses' I have

incurred in my Business ~ sad to say many Electricians haven't been so lucky.

Brian

I am very glad indeed that you are still here to be able to contribute to this forum, I always enjoy and find very helpful the things that you have to say.

Kind regards

Paul

[Ken Cox]

Hi Dave

sorry you feel this is pointless, that's probably my fault, i'll be careful which topics I take part in in future.

kind regards

paul

Paul

i dont think Dave is saying it is pointless per se -- rules are generally made for a reason - we have here some members that dont seem to feel they should follow the rules of the church hall and some that do feel they should, so the thread is going nowhere -- we are spinning our wheels

it is too bad that the d___head in church hall has to assert his authority - he must get points for upsetting people -- he must think he will get a PAT on the back

ken

[davegee]

Paul,

As Ken said it is the discussion about something which should really be common sense - black and white - which is senseless.

Your contribution was the first bit of sense spoken and I endorse all that you said.

You and I possibly have the same background and the same insight.

DaveG

[baldsparky]

Hi Dave

sorry for the misunderstanding, thanks for taking the time to put me right. By the way it's the first time I've been accused of talking sense! I'm off to tell the wife!

Thanks to Ken also. Sometimes it's difficult to 'hear' what people are saying when it's only written down.

Kind regards

Paul

[Conflow]

Dave,

You wrote..."This whole discussion seems to be a pointless excercise" from your #12 post above

Well I'm sorry Dave ~ but Paul and other Forum Members are reading this topic with interest and are quite concerned

as to how they stand if and when giving a public performance of their PTE.Slide Shows, so its certainly not pointless...

I do understand your comments about Council Insurance and putting the onus on the Hall Warden...

'Thats passing the Book' and I'm damn sure they wouldn't get away with it here. We have a legitimate right here

to ask for an 'Electrical Compliance Certificate' which can not Lawfully be with-held irrespective of any 3rd party matters

whether they be Council, Commercial, Church Hall, Public Venue or Local Bigwig....the facts are simple:-

The Venue must be 'Electrically Compliant to National & EU Regulations' to protect the Public against mishap in those

premises irrespective of cause whether its Fire, Water, Electrocution, or simple electrical accident and appliance faults !

To ask the 'Local Safety Officer' to attend each and every opening hour of a Church Hall or indeed to ask the Hall Warden

to examine every piece of appliance is absurd and is as abuse of the Warden....Just fit an ELCB and have done with it or

make sure the Council have one fitted in the first place.

Things are different here ~ we would not ask a 'Hall-Warden' to accept that responsibility ~ that's illegal in the E.U.

and Local Councils know that !!

I do urge Forum Members to use an (E.U Approved) 'Mains Multi-Outlet Box' with internal ELCB ~ call it Insurance.

That's all I have to say on this topic.

Brian.

[davegee]

http://www.pat-testing.info/

Was it Sodd or Murphy who said that if anything can go wrong it will go wrong?

At the risk of being misunderstood once again I repeat that the senseless part of this discussion is not the technical aspects but the fact that we are all trying, once again, to find a way around a legal requirement.

PAT of your own equipment in your own home is not a legal requirement but if you take that equipment to a public place like a hospital, school, village hall etc then you have to comply (whether requested or not).

DaveG

[fh1805]

...we are all trying, once again, to find a way around a legal requirement

Dave,

I don't think any of us are trying to find a way around a legal requirement. What I think we are doing is trying to improve our understanding of just what the legal requirements are on us (in respect of our equipment) and on our "hosts" (in respect of the safety of their premises). I'm aware of one or two premises in my own area (all council run) that do ask for evidence of PAT. I'm also aware of one or two venues (not operated by local councils) where I feel the age of the electrical equipment has the potential to pose a risk.

I'm finding this an informative discussion, the more so as some of the contributors are qualified (I hope!) electricians and are therefore speaking with a degree of authority on this subject.

regards,

Peter

[Conflow]

Dave,

I accept your point of view in regards to Wales your home territory ~ its probably different in Scotland

and other parts of the U.K. ~ but god knows if its enforced locally ?. Many years ago we used to have

that absurd situation here but thankfully thats all cleared up now.

Is it that the Insurance Companies are Anti-EEC and wish to enforce their own (personal) Rule-Books ??

Thats very interesting considering the UK, Wales and Scotland are EC Members and all equipment made

in Britian must comply with the E.U Safety Certification Scheme ~ otherwise no Export Licence's.

At least the 'Topic' got an airing and if one uses a 'E.U Approved Mains Multi-Outlet' then its none of their

concern, their Installations are protected and so are yours. I wonder would they have the guts to

challenge the EU.Directives if it was reported to your local EU.Office in Cardiff where you can get a free

copy of those Regulations..I doubt it.

Lets leave it at that.

Brian

[Conflow]

Peter,

You wrote..."are qualified (I hope!) electricians and are therefore speaking with a degree of authority on this subject"....

You are quite correct, even our small Firm had to undergo accreditation to Manufacture Turbine Controls

and when we employ Electricians they have to be ECTI registered and we ourselves are not permitted to

use Non-Compliant Tools nor equipment and we have to insist on CE.Certification prior to any purchase

of Plant & Equipment ~ including Computers and Welding-Equipment. There is an awful lot more to it than

than that, but generally in Ireland if you can show the 'EC Accreditation Marks & Documents' and your

Company 'Certs' and in large organisations you must be ISO9000 approved then we dont have that hassle

of producing PAT's which seem's be a U.K. Insurance thing. But I doubt that would stand up against E.U

enquiry as Britian is an E.U Member and has already signed into Law the EU Electrical Safety Regulations.

Brian.

[Ken Cox]

Dave,

I don't think any of us are trying to find a way around a legal requirement. What I think we are doing is trying to improve our understanding of just what the legal requirements are on us (in respect of our equipment) and on our "hosts" (in respect of the safety of their premises). I'm aware of one or two premises in my own area (all council run) that do ask for evidence of PAT. I'm also aware of one or two venues (not operated by local councils) where I feel the age of the electrical equipment has the potential to pose a risk.

I'm finding this an informative discussion, the more so as some of the contributors are qualified (I hope!) electricians and are therefore speaking with a degree of authority on this subject.

regards,

Peter

PETER

if i was the supervisor of the day i had to approve the permits i had referred to ,as well i had to be a qualified person to apply artificial resucation if need be -- these were company as well as government rules

we had another rule as well -- no beards were allowed because if an emergency occured and you had to put on a scott airpak - it was a proven fact that you would not get a tight seal

we also had many rules -that were government law - no rings to be worn, saftey boots had to be worn and hard hats be worn if coming out of your office -- the office people had to abide if they wanted to work in industry -- the sikhs had to take off their headgear if they came out of their offices

that is life in the real world that Dave and Paul are try to get across to people -- rules baby is what the world loves

ken

[davegee]

Brian,

Good advice, as always, but it does not absolve you from the legal requirement to PAT - in England, Scotland and Wales.

DaveG