UK Village Halls

[Conflow]

Dave and All,

Purely as a matter of curiosity, who is UK. accreditation authority demanding these PAT Certs ?

If it's your HSE Authority they have a number of 'Downloadable Publications - in PDF Format

which Forum Members might like to read. Look up the A~Z Index Electrical (E) and for those

in Entertainment (AV-Shows) they clearly recommend using 'RCD Trip Relays' on Mains supplies

feeding such equipment as Computers/Projectors/Amplifiers but we in Ireland go further with

the use of ELCB's (electrical leakage circuit breakers) as I have already mentioned.

This would seem to be the answer to Mike's problem, for if he uses such, he is in compliance

with the HSE requirement. He could carry a Copy Publication with him for inspection, otherwise he

would be obliged to have his Equipment PAT-Tested each and every time he goes to a different

venue which obviously is absurd.

(See HSE-2 below)

Link:-

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/elecindx.htm

And a few attachments below:-

Brian.

[davegee]

http://www.pat-testing.info/legal.htm

....and see post #8 - it lasts for a year.

DaveG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

I have been watching this thread with interes,t as I mentioned PAT when my club acquired our own projector last year. I got the same sort of reaction from certain contributors, bordering on riddicule. I was working when PAT came in and had around 20 electrical engineers under my control. I wish to put my weight behind the knowledgeable lobby, it is a fact that should be taken seriously when raised regarding carrying out a show.

Since retirement I came across it last year with a vengence when I decided to enter a country fair at Hawes market hall. Not only did I have to have PAT testing for my lap top and stall lighting, I had to have third party insurance in case my equipment set the hall on fire. Ignoring rules when requested to comply could cost you a hell of a lot more than a few bob for PAT testing or a basic third party insurance.

Lets be careful out there, "Safe Electrics is Common Sense".

Yachtsman1

[coopernatural]

Dave and All,

Purely as a matter of curiosity, who is UK. accreditation authority demanding these PAT Certs ?

If it's your HSE Authority they have a number of 'Downloadable Publications - in PDF Format

which Forum Members might like to read. Look up the A~Z Index Electrical (E) and for those

in Entertainment (AV-Shows) they clearly recommend using 'RCD Trip Relays' on Mains supplies

feeding such equipment as Computers/Projectors/Amplifiers but we in Ireland go further with

the use of ELCB's (electrical leakage circuit breakers) as I have already mentioned.

This would seem to be the answer to Mike's problem, for if he uses such, he is in compliance

with the HSE requirement. He could carry a Copy Publication with him for inspection, otherwise he

would be obliged to have his Equipment PAT-Tested each and every time he goes to a different

venue which obviously is absurd.

(See HSE-2 below)

Link:-

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/elecindx.htm

And a few attachments below:-

Brian.

Brian,

Not sure if you might be confusing terminology when you mention that in Southern Ireland you also have ELCBs in addition to RCDs.

In a modern context of an installation ELCB/RCD are they not effectivly the same thing?

ELCBs were no longer a spec item in the UK in the early 1980s.

They were replaced by RCDs.ELCBS still exist all though not like the earlier voltage sensing types.

Confusion exists as some keep refering to them as ELCBs.

The other thing you mentioned earlier was an EU multi-outlet with RCD protection.

I Worked in southern Ireland last year and I don't think I ever seen one.

Davy

[Conflow]

Hi Dave,

You wrote..."In a modern context of an installation ELCB/RCD are they not effectivly the same thing?

Answer:- No,they are 2 different devices and you are correct about ELCB's no longer in use in UK.

but they are extensively used on the European Mainland.

The reasons being:-

When you worked in Ireland you would have noticed that our Mains Distribution System is different to the UK

in that we use 3.Phase Star-Distribution with centre Earth. Thats a 4 Wire 3 Phase System and each phase

R or B or Y could be uses individually with Earth as a single-phase outlet. Mains Sockets in Ireland & EU have

3 Individual/Independent wires:- Phase, Neutral,and independent Earth which is returned to the Mains Transformer

and then Earthed.

In the U.K I believe you use 3.Phase Delta-Distribution with some form of polyphase Earth System (I'm not sure).

However your Sockets have Phase and Neutral where in fact your Neutral return is also your Earth.

ELCBs need an independent Earth return to operate correctly ~ RCB's do not need this Earth return as the

neutral is Earth. Problem is an RCB will not protect persons touching Live & Neutral simultaneously.

Electronic ELCB's work in a different way to RCB's in that they monitor both Phase & Neutral relative to Earth

and should either become disconnected it will trip. It also 'trips' if there is an accidental misbalance between Live

and Neutral relative to Earth ~ such as a person touching both accidentally. (There is a lot more to this device).

Concerning Multi-Outlets with incorporated RCB's in the UK ~ below are some lead's and these are also available

from most Electrical Wholesalers.

Sorry if this has bored anybody, but Dave did ask a very valid and pertinent question which relates to Safety.

This topic is now well covered and I think we should get back to the PTE Forums' main business - PTE 5.56.

Brian.

[davegee]

In order to answer Brian's question more fully, albeit in layman's terms:

The link here http://www.pat-testing.info/legal.htm sets out the legal requirement on the employer

"Every employer shall ensure that work equipment is maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair."

In order to comply the employer must have a SCHEME which sets out the type and the frequency of tests he will make. This then becomes a STATUTORY DOCUMENT by which he must comply.

Any insurance document will state that non-compliance will invalidate the insurance.

In the case of Portable Appliances the type of testing will be PAT and the frequency depends on the nature of the equipment. A desktop computer might only need testing annually and a laptop / projector might be deemed to need 3 or 6 monthly testing. In either case it is the duty of the operator to examine the appliance daily to check for external problems such as damaged leads loose covers etc.

HMI can also ask that the frequency be changed to a shorter period if he thinks it necessary (usually this arises out of an incident).

The introduction to the above PAT advisory document also sets out the reasons for PAT:

* 1. Where appliances are used by employees.

* 2. Where the public may use appliances in establishments such as hospitals, schools, hotels, shops etc.

* 3. Where appliances are supplied or hired.

* 4. Where appliances are repaired or serviced.

In the case of a repair on a third party's laptop / projector it can be seen that PAT would be required after the said repair in order to stay in compliance.

Continued......

If you take your laptop / projector into a premises which is part of such a scheme then you have a

responsibilty to comply with the scheme and the person who is asking for evidence of PAT on your equipment

in advance is acting responsibly in giving you the opportunity to comply.

A question that I would ask of that person is "What is the frequency of PAT required?" so that you are fully aware that you comply.

Having a one year old PAT Certificate is of no use if the scheme requires 3 or 6 monthly testing.

Brian's advice re ELCB's and RCD's is good advice and, PARTICULARLY in premises not covered by a scheme, is

essential.

However, in addition to ELCB's / RCD's etc, and where such a scheme is in force you MUST also provide proof

that you comply with PAT when asked to do so.

I have learnt over the years that:

Anything that can happen, WILL happen.....

and...

Ignorance of the Law is not a defence in a Court of Law, Tribunal or INQUEST.

DaveG

[coopernatural]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that .There are variations in cabling and neutral/earthing arrangements in the UK.

I wouldn't chance sticking my 2 fingers between live and neutral on any system.The theory is that

an RCD would not trip,but they would likely detect an imbalance and cut out.

I thought you might have meant RFI/Transient suppressed 4 gang trailing sockets,and that is why I queried you recommending them, as a must have safety feature.You know the ones that claim to guarantee your equipment up to £50,000 or so if you can prove that their 4 gangs couldn't stop a full blown lightning strike on nuclear EMP.(yea right)

The plug in type rcds for extension leads to lawnmowers etc are electronic and uber fast and sensitive.

I wouldn't fit one of these electronic rcd plugs to a trailing lead inside, if the club/venue had existing rcd protected sockets.

Computers/hard drives and audio equipment aren't always appreciative of rcds on a hair trigger.

Don't mind that the Rcds can weld their contacts together and are regarded as sacrificial.

I don't feel that way about my PC/amp gear etc.

Don't suppose it would do any harm to have units checked/tested for compliance.

A different matter though when some guy with a clip board orders you to.

All I remember of working south of the border, was that the Guinness tasted better.

Davy

[Mike Reed]

Hi All

I did not intend to stir up such feelings when posing this question. I have since established that the reason for requesting the certifcation is because the halls' insurers have written such a requirement into their third party liability cover. It is not therefore unreasonable for the hall to protect itself. I wonder how many other halls are similarly affected but no body has bothered to read the small print.

Mike

[davegee]

From post #20:

"I see no reason why the village hall who are requesting this would not be right in asking for it.

Some do and others are not as aware of its implications. It is a bit like having your projector/laptop MOT'd annually - it is not invasive and takes literally minutes".

DaveG

[Barry Beckham]

Forgive me guys, but this is hogwash. I would use some stronger descriptions, but I don't want to offend anyone.

This is an English disease that has been caused by the Health and Safety Police and their tragic followers. Well, the Health and Safety Executive have to justify their existance some how. It is sad, but this affliction strikes down the dim witted, most inadequate and stupid people in society especially targeting those who do not have the ability to think for themselves. I think people with the same disease were around many years ago and said they were just following orders, but still went to prison from what I hear.

The disease makes these people SO stupid that all you have to do to defeat them is put a white sticker on the underside of your kit saying " Tested 11/03/09 BB"

Then they skip away happy as Larry.

[Conflow]

Good Man Barry,

Controversial as usual ~but in essence you are correct ~ what ever happened to personal common sense ??

Sure there are 'rogue' owners of Portable equipment who think nothing of extending the Mains cable by

spliicing it to an extension cable with nothing more than 'Insulating-Tape' then using that in a Public Hall.

Or the 'idiot' who sticks two bare wires into the Mains or those who roll Heavy PA Speakers across Cables?

My point in this discussion is:- If Electrcal Installations in Public Venues were ALL fitted with the proper specified

"Approved Electrical Safety Equipment" and wired to Regulation Standards and Test-Certified then these measures

would suffice in protecting the Public and Premises against 'defective' wiring and Equipment faults (Portable & Static)

whilst offering Fire protection and lower Insurance costs.

But as you say, that would be too simple ~ or is that they won't spend the money ? ~ so a way had to be found to

exonerate and cover those negligence's. PAT's are certainly a convenient and much abused way of doing just that.

It's become an Insurance "get-out clause" which simply passed the BOOK on to the unsuspecting Public sector.

(It reminds me of the current U.K and Irish Banks fiasco's ~ if it's toxic put it on the Public account)

Brian.Conflow.

P.S.

This is for Camera Clubs: You can now gets a 'PAT Tester Certificate' on the Internet. (1.Day Course £250).

So for a 50 Member Camera Club, you have your own resident Tester for £5 per Member ~ makes you think !

[westonphoto]

Unfortunately, we (in the UK) have only ourselves to blame for this. So intent are we on embracing the 'Blame & Claim' culture that all commonsense has had to be legislated against. It wouldn't be quite so ridiculous were this legislation set in place to protect the user/employer/village hall/employee - indeed that would be nothing but laudable. But it's all directed at protecting the Insurance Companies against any possibility of a claim. Any possible benefit to end-users has been little more than a mere side-effect. There used to be a truism to the effect that "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools" - if so, why do we seem so blessed with such an over-abundance of fools? More to the point; do the fools themselves come with safety certification. That would be an equable solution; you prove that your equipment is safe and they do likewise. Or is that too much like commonsense?

"It wasn't me. A big boy did it and ran away."

[Ken Cox]

HEAR HEAR

KEN

[Barry Beckham]

Its OK guys I now feel better after that little rant

You see I used to work in the thick of all this nonsense in the transport industry and here is an interesting story. We employed specialist roofers to fix the roof of one of our bus garages and their own safety representative never fitted his safety harness and fell injuring himself.

We were charged by the H&S police for not providing a safe place of work. Now how does that work when you emply experts in the field? It follows that if you employ an electrician and he does not turn off the power and electicutes himself, you could be charged?

Why do you think the transport system is so bad in the UK, because, left to the H&S they will gring it to a stop with so many rules and regs that in the end you just can't operate.

Put a sticker on yourself and its done.

[westonphoto]

Put a sticker on yourself and its done.

Well said, that man. In itself, either the 'official' sticker or the DIY one which Barry advocates has virtually no value whatsoever. The only value lies in the perception of safety.

A parallel situation. In the UK, to legally run a car more than 3 years old (I think it's 3 years) you must have a valid MOT certificate issued by an approved centre on behalf of the Government. To paraphrase the official wording 'This certificate is NOT an indication of overall roadworthiness other than at the time of testing'. In other words, get the certificate, take the car 50 yards down the road and remove many safety features and it is still certified for 12 months because you have the bit of paper.

The same applies to portable electrical goods. Get the certificate, remove the fuse and replace with foil from a cigarette packet and it is still (albeit notionally) certified - it's got the all-important 'sticker'. As a bonus, rewire it so that the 'fuse' is in the neutral rather than the live. Would you use it in that condition? I know I wouldn't! But that would be the application of commonsense over legislation.

Taken to ridiculous extremes, using Barry's bus garage example, you could argue that

1. Of course National Express were liable. If they had stored the buses/ coaches out in the open then this accident could never have happened. No roof, no accident!
   
2. The man's mother is responsible. If she hadn't given birth to him, he would never have been in that situation.
   

At some point we have to take responsibility for our actions. More importantly, we have to be allowed to take that responsibility. But then, there is no 'profit' to be made from that.

[Barry Beckham]

Phil

You have a great way with words, you should have been a poet