ImageArtz Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 I have searched through the archives and have not seen anything that quite pertains to my particular situation. I do slideshows for my wedding clients. I charge a fee to create these slideshows. I have my bride & groom provide their own music (cd's that they have purchased for their own pleasure) for this slideshow presentation. What I am charging for is my creative work with the photography and slideshow presentation. So here is the question - am I breaking any copyright laws?Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Yes you are. But, there are several royalty free music companies around, or, do as I've done. Find a local musician that will sell their license for a reasonable fee. As long as you are copying the music in any way, and giving it to someone else, you are breaking the copyright laws. Even though the music belongs to the customer. The fact you are charging for the cd, doesn't matter what you want to call the charges are for, you are breaking copyright law.Sorry.Kirk Kief, FSA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobeefstu Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 ImageArtz,Basically what Kirk is saying ... even though your Customer purchaced the CD Music Discs ... it does not entitle them rights to distribute it. This is wether its supplied to you to copy for them... or for themselves to copy and distribute.Even if its free ... its still illegal distribution. The Music industry is giving this matter great attention and provoking ever stronger laws everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikej998 Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 I have had this same situation arise. My problem is that clients are very specific as to the music they want. I have been wondering about those music download sites where you pay per download. I have tried but have not been able to get info out of anyone there about copyright. What if I downloaded the one copy and it went into the show, so basically it was the licensed copy? I would even be willing to pay a higher fee to be able to do this. The current fee is $0.79 per track I believe. If this were possible then I could use popular current music to accompany my show. Not that I dislike the royalty free stuff, I actually use it too, it's just that most of it people have not heard much of before. If anyone has any idea where I could get info on this I would greatly appreciate it!Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Cox Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 why dont you check thesehttp://www.riaa.com/and http://www.geocities.com/riaasucks/lay your thoughts on bothor sell them the pictures, when you get your money, throw in the slideshow for free - it will not be legal but it is close ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujiboy Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 http://www.audiostudplus.comon this site you can find very nice music cd's completely roalty freeofcourse you have to pay for the cd'san idea (for Ken )start a new topic wich including the roalty free music internet sites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Beckham Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 imageartzIt is not worth the risk of using music you have do not have the right to use. If you are making money from this venture you should compensate someone else for their music. You wouldn't give your wedding photographs away would you.Try here http://www.trackline.com/ a site that I was put onto and for under £30 you can buy all your wedding music. www.bbdigital.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Cox Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 quoteMy problem is that clients are very specific as to the music they want. this is the whole problem -- people want something for nothing all the time and dont care about the law -- the photographer doesnt know that possibly the couple's 3rd cousin removed is a RIAA enforcer and the next thing he is faced with a lawsuit.If you are going to offer the service lay it on them up front that this is the music they have to chose from take it or leave it.I played "MR.Nice Guy" couple years back -- young fellow i do business with got married and posted all the pictures on a site. i snagged the whole site, extracted the pictures and put them in a show in the order they were on the webpage. Then i asked my wife the names of some of the tunes that were played at our 3 daughter's weddings,did a search and got some "wedding music" and finished the show. It was an exercise for me and i was quite proud of my exploits. Made a couple cd's, took them to his place of business, fired up his laptop and put on the show - he was not only surprised but tickled pink. got an email from him month or so kater -- his wife didn't like the music -- i wrote back told him to tell her to turn off the speakers.have never mentioned cd again to him.music i picked was the rose - Bette Midler, and I will follow him Whoppi Goldberg and 3 others -- they sure were not royalty free.What is the common song that can not be sung on tv without taking the chance of paying royalty -- is it "happy birthday"ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Timmons Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Nice concept Ken take it or leave it Buddy ! you must have a very nice pension HA HA!! but of course you are correct it is a headache trying to do the right thing where IT IS A COMMERCIAL CD we are subject to copyright laws Thanks BE to your god otherwise I would need to borrow money from KEN !! its just sooooo sooooo! diffucult to do the right thing here and I am not talking about all you nice honest people who make some fantastic shows for pure pleasure and are either giving it away or competing these licences are cheap and easy enough to obtain and as someone pointed out You would not like your client copying your work and I am sure you take measures to prevent it good luck and if you get sorted let ME know regards and keep on rocking Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Cox Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 well we all know p2e is the ultimate show so the customer has to take it as specified by you with your collection of royalty free musicor they will have to accept a second class production with the latest pirated tunesnow when was the last time you seen a bride accept anything second class ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lyons Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Hi all, Well we're off again on copyright. This is not going to go away. I mentioned that I have a shared licence as a member of the Irish Photographic Federation A/V Group which allows me to use copyright music in the production and showing of A/V Sequences for competition and display to clubs ect on a non profit basis. Any P2E user who is non comertial should try to get a group licence going in their area. As for the comercial boys and girls they may allow you to distribute limmited coppies of a given work for a fee. How many wedding show coppies would you make? How many sample pro mos would you distribute? My advice is stay legal it's by far the cheeper option Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Regarding copyright issues, the MP3.Com site has the following: "Unlike many other subscription offerings that restrict how you can use your music, it easy for you to transfer your music to portable devices, burn CDs and make multiple copies for your personal use. It's up to you, because once you download the tracks you own the music. SIGN UP NOW! »" Seems to me if the client is buying the music for his/her slideshow that you are making for them, it would be legal. Then again, I suppose an attroney could be hired to argue it is not legal but this seems unlikely for the hobbiest or very small business owner making slideshows for others.I welcome your thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Timmons Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Hi Bubba, "I welcome your thoughts on this " Sorry but it is still not right to use someone elses work without paying doesn't matter what the company MP3 .COM say it is much more complicated than this what I think we would all welcome is a reasonable price for a licence with the obvious limitations in place I think the whole Recording industry would be in better shape and I could buy more CD's with the fall in prices this issue is in bad need of a shake up too much time spent on chasing pirates instead of making it less attractive, there was a market in Manhattan last Sunday some Dominican Holiday and the amount of Bogey CD's $5 each all the latest chart music if the cost of a straight CD in the store was closer they would more than likely put these guys out of Business and sell lots more Cd's.......... tricky stuff my amigo's so Bubba good luck trying to find your way through this minefield or do as Ken say's "Happy Birthday to you" or do your own DA DA DA DA if you are a good HUMMER keep on rocking................... Regards Clive , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieMcD Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I produce wedding slide shows as part of my wedding photography packages in addition to a proof book that I give th bride and groom. I have been researching purchasing a license to put a particular song as background music for the slide shows and I have been having troble finding the right people to pay. I contacted the music company listed on the music CD (in the liner notes) and they say they don't handle that particular song (even though the CD notes say otherwise). I have to do more searching on the internet and if I come up with something I'll let you know. FYI, I spoke to one of the music company reps and he said that license rights are often 8 cnets per CD or a little more depending on where the CD will be marketed, selling, etc etc. The information that they will need for those pursuing this avenue is how many copies are to be distributed, the geographical location (ie, US or worldwide), which song, and how it is going to be used.Charliewww.summerbreezephotography.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobeefstu Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Bubba,You post of MP3.com :Unlike many other subscription offerings that restrict how you can use your music, it easy for you to transfer your music to portable devices, burn CDs and make multiple copies for your personal use. It's up to you, because once you download the tracks you own the music. SIGN UP NOW! The facts stated above may well be true for MP3.com's music you buy and download from their site .... but this is not the general rule for all music purchased.The big clue in the statement above is PERSONAL USE.Once you go beyond that simple fact of using it otherwise ( sell, give, copy or distribute to others to use or enjoy) ... its no longer for your PERSONAL USE.And as Clive, Alan and all the others state ... the issue is highly debateable and is not going away. The only benefit to this issue now is that lawyers are making money off it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 If I produce a slideshow for someone and they add music that they brought on MP3.com, it seems this would be for their personal use. I'm not trying to be coy. I'd like to work out a way for people to enjoy royality paid music for their slideshows that they have me produce for them. I don't plan to keep a copy of their music, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobeefstu Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Bubba,All I can say at this point in time its a touchy legal subject ... as their is not clear definitions of this matter. Just proceed with caution when dealing with your clients.My only comment is use your best and wise judgement as to whatever you decide to do.I would however expect the client to verify the proof of purchase and sign a release to me ( this would include any material/music/art they supply . I would also display within the project some visible credits/use/disclamers as to the material/music used in the project. Give/show credit where credit is due ... it may not release from the legal issues ... but it may help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 NoBeeStu, Thanks and I agree. It's a murky legal area that credit/disclaimers in the show and a signed verification by the owner should help avoid possible litigation over music copyrights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannybr2003 Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 In my opinion, if someone bought a Cd containing music, he/she is buying it for his own "listening" satisfaction and personal use. When he bought the Cd he did not sign any legal document agreeing that he will not copy it. He only agreed to pay the store to have the Cd so he can play it whenever he wants and keep it as long as he wants. There was no direct agreement between the buyer and the manufacturer. The seller doesn't even care to know, remind buyers about it. He gave his money in exchange for the whole Cd for his "own "listening satisfaction". Now if he ask the PTE maker to include some songs from the CD for his "own "listening satisfaction", and just listen to the music for his "own "listening satisfaction" while watching the PTE, I think the person is still being true to his purpose why he bought and is listening to that music. After all, whoever originally created the CD will not be bothered to send anyone another copy to the PTE maker if told you want to use it in the PTE show. If the buyer duplicates it for "some other ear's satisfaction" then he is bound. But suppose you just pick the Cd while walking on a street then make a copy on your pc. In that case his purpose is to make sure the "free song copies" contained on the Cd you picked up is to treasure the songs. Why would anyone litigate that you who have no ill purpose on the music? And would they litigate me if in front of them I crush the Cd if the songs contained there are so precious to them?If I buy a hammer, then copy the shape and sturdiness of their hammer so that it will be as good as theirs 'for my own use', will they litigate me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lyons Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 In my opinion, if someone bought a Cd containing music, he/she is buying it for his own "listening" satisfaction and personal use. When he bought the Cd he did not sign any legal document agreeing that he will not copy it. He only agreed to pay the store to have the Cd so he can play it whenever he wants and keep it as long as he wants. There was no direct agreement between the buyer and the manufacturer. The seller doesn't even care to know, remind buyers about it. If you read the front of the CD and elseware in the sleve notes you will see a statment to the efect that, the work remains the copyright of the lable and that no copying, lending or public performance is permitted without prior written permission:Technacally, if you play your CD in the garden and your neighbours sing allong you are in breach of the copyright. As I, and others have said on this forum, cover is cheeper then litagation,Regards,Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Timmons Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 This is really a hot potato but copyright listen here ...........................A photographer sold a print taken at a wedding in Dublin to one of the other companies also dealing with the wedding , the other company then use the print in an advertisement photographer gets sued for over 20 000 euro a good bit over 20 even though the other company used the photo......... PUBLISHING RIGHTS belong to the client had he given the print away well he would have got off , You got to respect the Authors rights or pay a BIG price in the end I am not naming any Companies for LEGAL REASONS !!!Keep on Rocking, Regards Clive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobeefstu Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 mannybr2003,I believe we both got somewhat the same perspective of this point. Your quote :If the buyer duplicates it for "some other ear's satisfaction" then he is bound. My point exactly. So when a Client comes to me and asks me to duplicate the music for "some other ear's satisfaction" (example, 300 wedding cds)... I would want :I would however expect the client to verify the proof of purchase and sign a release to me The release is to qualify/identify the material submitted of which Im copying for the client . It shows the client had supplied /selected the music content and had the rights to use/copy the material.This signed release is not a aggreement as to not copy/dupilcate the work I produce for them. (Whether this be for 1 or 300 wedding cds ... you must assume they will or can possibly copy it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannybr2003 Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 My comments does not in any way address any among us here, so please don't be offended. I just want to air why these laws are only applied to the showbusiness mostly?Why couldn't they PREVENT other car, airplane, ships, microwave ovens, stereos, cd payers, tv MANUFACTURERS from making and selling their own? Why are they targeting the SMALL TIME USER'S WHO are small time duplicators and not even selling their copies? Why don't they apply the laws to the big time, REAL COMPETITORS who openly manufactures BRAND NEW, UNDER NEW LABELS, and SELLS for really good profit? They are openly competing and advertising on the TV's everyday, yet they are not facing each other in the courtrooms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobeefstu Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 mannybr2003,I dont believe anyone here is offended ... were all openly dicussing the current matter and not enforcing a policy for someone to adhere to. My comments does not in any way address any among us here, so please don't be offended. I just want to air why these laws are only applied to the showbusiness mostly?As for this copy subject only applying to showbusiness and samll time businesses mostly ... it really applies to every and all busineesses and manufacturers ( even more so).I dont think you see a car, airplane, ships, microwave ovens, stereos, cd payers, tv repackaged (exact copy) with the same exact parts, design and labels etc. and sold as ones own property. They use and require patent lawyers to even begin their production process. There are many patents on parts, processes, designs that must be researched to obtain/ grant release/rights to use any such parts or processes. Someone or some company holds/owns the copyright/patents of most of those bits and pieces ... of which you must apply to be granted use.Once they have all releases/grants ( usually at a big $ )to use such patented parts/processes in their own product ... they then apply for approval of a design patent to protect their own property/product. Its alot of research to perform so that you do not infringe on anyone elses property/patents ... or they will find themselves in a courtroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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