As Good as It Is,

[Lin Evans]

After tinkering with every imaginable way of creating high definition video I've decided that it simply doesn't compare with a good executable played by a system with a superior video card.

Quick horizontal and rotational movement just doesn't render smoothly with video, at least with the video modes available to the consumer. I've tried custom with double pass encoding, 1080p high quality, varied the frame rates in every imaginable way and essentially getting smooth fast rotation and smooth horizontal movement when an object is rotating is not possible in my experience. One of the recent experiments with rotation and spinning of objects has convinced me that HD video, for the consumer at least, is best left to simple slideshows with transitions and minimal animation for superior results.

Professional video (movies, etc.) have mastered getting smooth movement in every way, but apparently the tools they have are not available to the masses.....

Lin

[davegee]

Lin,

I recently did a series of MPEGs for a MAC user which had no PZR effects and just fade in/out transitions.

The MAC user was delighted.

I will try to go a little further with PZR but I suspect that you are correct.

Did you try with lower resolution MPEGs?

DaveG

[potwnc]

Lin,

I'm afraid I have to disagree. I too have had to experiment and there have been times when I have had to make the P/Z (I don't use R) longer than I had originally planned or to P/Z covering a smaller area of the original image than I had originally planned - because although it looks great in the PTE preview it looks choppy when rendered to 1080p and played back in a media player (and I have a very powerful PC). But in the end that was just because of the framerate requirements imposed by the (HD) video I was rendering and not because of any PTE limitation.

I don't think the "professional" tools to do this use any technology that Igor isn't aware of. In fact, PTE is one of the few tools available to the "masses" that is priced so reasonably considering the professional software technology that it uses.

Ray

[Lin Evans]

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. I think you misunderstand me. It's not a PTE issue, it's a video issue. The HD video simply can't handle the rotate and pan smoothly regardless of the software used. I have about a dozen pieces of software which create HD video and "none" of them can make it look remotely like the executable.

As for "professional" tools, I'm talking about tools used by the movie industry which cost many thousands of dollars not tools readily available to the consumer.

Best regards,

Lin

[potwnc]

I have about a dozen pieces of software which create HD video and "none" of them can make it look remotely like the executable.

Lin,

I can produce 1080p video, from PTE, using Vegas Pro 8 that comes reasonably close - in my opinion and experience - to the equivalent .exe file.

As for "professional" tools, I'm talking about tools used by the movie industry which cost many thousands of dollars not tools readily available to the consumer.

Vegas Pro 8 (about $1000) is one of those tools that the movie industry uses. It's the only pro-sumer software I have used.

Ray

[Igor]

Lin,

That's true, mainly 30p video can't deliver smooth playback of fast movement and rotation.

There is a one thing (used in rendering of computer graphics for movies) which can make a little better movements for 25p-30p video but price is high:

- Slow downing of rendering in 3-4 times.

- Blurring of fast moving objects (along axis/vector of movement).

I experimented with this improved rendering, but have leaved this idea for future when more fast CPUs will come.

By the way, did you try 1280x720 60p video with higher frame rate? It should be quite enough.

[Lin Evans]

Lin,

I can produce 1080p video, from PTE, using Vegas Pro 8 that comes reasonably close - in my opinion and experience - to the equivalent .exe file.

It does indeed, as long as there are no fast pans of objects or pans and rotates combined. I also use Vegas among others but none are really any better than PTE. Again, it's not the programs but rather video itself which just can't compete with the smoothness of the executable when doing some complex animations. Image quality is superb with the HD videos, it's just that they can't do the motion with the same quality as the executable.

Lin

Vegas Pro 8 (about $1000) is one of those tools that the movie industry uses. It's the only pro-sumer software I have used.

Ray

[Lin Evans]

Hi Igor,

Yes, that's what I've concluded as well. It's primarily frame rate which at 29.97 fps (30) can't render the motion without either blurring or stuttering, especially when rotation is combined with mid-speed pans.

I did try 1280x720 with 60 fps and it's very good but still has jerky movement on my rotates and pan rotate combinations. The movement I have programmed is a worst case scenario so just too much for the video to handle I think. It's been a learning experience to try to equal the executable, but so far not possible with this show.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin,

That's true, mainly 30p video can't deliver smooth playback of fast movement and rotation.

There is a one thing (used in rendering of computer graphics for movies) which can make a little better movements for 25p-30p video but price is high:

- Slow downing of rendering in 3-4 times.

- Blurring of fast moving objects (along axis/vector of movement).

I experimented with this improved rendering, but have leaved this idea for future when more fast CPUs will come.

By the way, did you try 1280x720 60p video with higher frame rate? It should be quite enough.

[Lin Evans]

Hi Tom,

I don't have a really "short" one, but I'll post the last show which really brings out the weakness. Give me a few minutes to make a link then I'll modify this post and put the link here...

http://www.learntomakeslideshows.net/sample/fs.zip

Link Above - about 16 meg.

[bmccammon]

I downloaded Lin's "Rotation Madness" file and previewed it in PTE v5.6 beta 16. Wonderful work Lin... but my wife had to leave the room or get motion sick. I loved it. I created an HD version and played it back in VLC without any apparant change in the quality of the rotations or movements. No shimmer. No jerking. Seemed pretty darn smooth to me. Maybe I'm just not tuned to as tight a pitch as others but I really don't think that the HD video output suffers at all.

Intel Core 2 Duo E8200

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB

[Lin Evans]

Could you tell me exactly what parameters you used to create the HD? I have one system with almost the same setup (GeForce 8800 GT 512MB Video Ram, Intel Core 2 Duo E4600 2.4 GH) with 4 GB system RAM running on Windows XP Home Edition and will use it to try to duplicate. No matter how I have created the videos I get jerky movement of horizontal and rotation as well as a good deal of "sparkle" as if the mipmapping is not working. Executable's are perfect. Worst case I can zip up the MP4 and post it so someone else with broadband can download and try it to see if the issue is with my playback or with the video creation.

Thanks,

Lin

[Igor]

Lin,

Did you try to play MP4 video file in Media Player Classic HomeCinema?

[Lin Evans]

Hi Igor,

Yes, in Classic HomeCinema, Flash Player 10 (very bad in Flash Player 10), in VLC and Kantaris. No difference between Classic HomeCinema and VLC/Kantaris - jerky in both. I tried taking out the sound and re-generating, etc., no help.

Just uploaded and installed HomeCinema version 1.2.908.0 and it's "better" than VLC or Kantaris, but still some jerky movement in rotates.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin,

Did you try to play MP4 video file in Media Player Classic HomeCinema?

[fh1805]

Hi Lin,

Here's my contribution for what it's worth...

I've downloaded your "Foolish Rotation Madness" zip file, extracted everything and opened the pte project file into v5.6 beta 16. Preview ran everything smoothly but I did notice some shimmering espcially on the following images:

- chipmunk and coyotes pivoting in the coinbezel

- horse in paddock during rotations

I then created two HD Videos for PC and Mac:

- SD 1024x768 - High quality - Pan and Scan enabled

- HD 1280x960 - High quality - Pan and Scan Enabled

Both of these showed jerky, stuttery horizontal movements and rotations. In particular, the rotating discs seen in perspective alignment all showed jagged edges.

I then went back to the PTE project file, which was still loaded, and Previewed a second time. This time I didn't see the shimmer on the chipmunk and coyotes or the horse - and was definitely looking for it! I've commented on this phenomenon in the forum on a previous occasion. It sometimes happens that I can Preview a sequence and see some shimmer but if I Preview it a second time without closing down PTE or making any other changes, I no longer see the shimmer. The situation has never been consistently reproducible so I've never reported it as a bug. I don't like asking Igor to try and track down something that is only intermittent and may be an artefact of my system rather than his software.

Both of the videos were played back using VLC Media Player. The PC system is an Intel Core2 Duo @ 2.33GHz, 2GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 8400GS with 256MB dedicated memory running Vista Home Premium SP1.

Just one further point.. The DxDiag report from my PC shows this line under the Display Devices heading: Current Mode: 1280 x 1024 (32 bit) (75Hz). I am presuming that this indicates that the monitor is being driven at a refresh rate of 75 frames per second. Is this a correct interpretation on my part? If so, then is the visible quality loss attributable to the difference between this (which I also suppose is the frame rate that PTE builds when running an EXE file) and the much slower frame rate of the video stream?

regards,

Peter

[Lin Evans]

Hi Tom,

I'm not sure whether the problem I have with Flash 10 player is the player or Firefox. With Flash 10 it skips frames, a lot! Also I get error messages and Mozilla must either close or restart so difficult to tell exactly.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,

I have a relatively new graphics card (ATI Radeon 4670) with Catalyst 8.12 driver. The H.264 is super smooth at 720p 60fps, but the 1080p video does make it stutter (Swap3D as an example) while the same project plays perfectly smooth as 1650x1080 .exe file.

I wonder if the normal media players (media player classic home cinema/VLC) with a software codec do not utilize the H.264 decoder in newer graphics cards. Have you tried running your test video full screen with flash player 10?

http://www.longtailvideo.com/support/forum...-flash#msg93031

Do you have a short PTE project you could post so we can compare the same benchmark?

Tom

[Lin Evans]

Hi Igor,

I've tried 60 fps as well as normal and though 60 is very clean, there is a slight "stutter" on the beginning of rotations and on the beginnings of some fast zooms. I see this especially in horse with the three disc pictures when it rotates. Also noticeable is more "shimmer" on the chipmonk's ear on the rotate within the bezel. I see this on my analog high resolution monitor at 1024x768 resolution but less at 1600x1200.

Note that I'm being hypercritical, it's not "bad" it's just not as good as the executable on my systems.

There is a slight "shutter or stutter" on the start and near the stop of some rotations and pans. This may not be visible on an LCD monitor with slower refresh but on my fast refresh analog Nokia 445Xi monitor it is quite visible. I'm going to try custom at 1024x768 with 60p and see what that yields.

Best regards,

Lin

[bmccammon]

I downloaded Lin's "Rotation Madness" file and previewed it in PTE v5.6 beta 16. Wonderful work Lin... but my wife had to leave the room or get motion sick. I loved it. I created an HD version and played it back in VLC without any apparant change in the quality of the rotations or movements. No shimmer. No jerking. Seemed pretty darn smooth to me. Maybe I'm just not tuned to as tight a pitch as others but I really don't think that the HD video output suffers at all.

Intel Core 2 Duo E8200

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB

Hi Lin. I used the default settings in the "create HD video" routine. It turns out that I really produced an SD (1024x768) MP4... not the HD that I said before. "Pan and scan" was enabled.

BTW... it took a bit under 7 minutes to render the MP4 file.

My playback was in VLC media player 0.9.6 Grishenko

I hope this helps. Let me know if I can provide any more/different information.

Best...

Bruce

[Lin Evans]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks! Yes, the non HD (SD) seems to play smoother than the HD creations for whatever reason. It's the same on Youtube and Vimeo. There is less jerkiness in standard quality than in high quality and not just from PTE but from all...

Best regards,

Lin

[bmccammon]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks! Yes, the non HD (SD) seems to play smoother than the HD creations for whatever reason. It's the same on Youtube and Vimeo. There is less jerkiness in standard quality than in high quality and not just from PTE but from all...

Best regards,

Lin

G'day, Lin. I generated two versions of your show in HD format...both using the default parameters in the VideoBuilder of PTE v5.6 beta 16. The only difference between the two versions is the screen aspect ratio. The first used the PTE default screen aspect ratio of 4:3 and the second used a 16:9 format. I thought that it might make a difference in how the show looked on playback. Both HD versions look very good to me using VLC. There may be the slightest amount of jitter in one or two of the sequences in which the disks are panning from right to left. This is noticeable only in the 4:3 version and, frankly, I'm not sure I'm seeing much at all and I've watched it 3 times now. The only stutter I see in the 16:9 version... and again, it is VERY slight (if it exists at all).... is in the zooming of the cougar to full screen just before the snowfall ending slide.

All in all I don't see any substantial difference between the HD versions and the SD version I reported earlier. Any of the perceived jitter/stutters may be the result of my aged eyes and not your show or PTE. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to present the show to others based on the quality I see.

Happy Holidays.

Bruce