Club AV Competition Anonymity.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

My club has introduced an AV competition this year. We are a small club in an area where everyone knows who's who in photography. The rules allow a voice over to be included, which throws up the problem of how do we make the shows anonymous & still retain the ability to judge the shows ourselves.

How does your club do it?

Yachtsman1

[jfa]

We don't, we rely on the integrity of the judge/s.

Also most AVs credit the producer/photographer and so on in the opening or closing titles..

[Guest Yachtsman1]

We don't, we rely on the integrity of the judge/s.

Also most AVs credit the producer/photographer and so on in the opening or closing titles..

These are not the usual AV, but 6 minute entries in a club comp'. If it is obvious who entered the work, favouritism could creep in, hence the question, prints & slides retain an anonymous nature as only the title is displayed. A voice is a surely recognisable feature.

Yachtsman1

Regards Eric

[davegee]

Get someone else who is not a member to do the voiceover?

DaveG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Get someone else who is not a member to do the voiceover?

DaveG

Hi Dave

Not acceptable, it has to be the members work.

Regards Eric.

[davegee]

OK,

I have a guitar effects pedal that would make you sound like Mickey Mouse or Paul Robeson or anywhere betwenn.

These are fairly easy to come by. However they won't hide your accent.

DaveG

[Ed Overstreet]

May I suggest -- and I say this as someone who used to organize, judge, and participate in AV competitions in our club but who also was instrumental in having them dropped in favour of a showcase with no commentary, scoring or awards, back in 2001 -- that, as in any artistic competition, a judge's comments and scores often tell more about the judge than about that which is being judged. In an AV competition, beyond minimal technical competence there is so much in judging and comparing shows (sometimes even literally apples and oranges ) that is inevitably arbitrary, subjective, inconsistent and sometimes infuriatingly irrational, that I am inclined to believe that whether the judge knows who the producer was, or what the judge's personal relations or opinion are of the producer, probably isn't going to make much more difference to the score than what the judge had for breakfast that morning, what his/her tastes are in music, whether he/she likes pan and zoom or finds it incredibly annoying except in rare situations, etc etc.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. But then I can say that, personally I gave up on competitions and switched to running/participating in showcases not competitions, years ago, so I wouldn't care and it's easy for me to say this. And back when I did enter and care about competitions, maybe I would have cared about this.

For the record, back when we had AV competitions at our club, the judges always knew who produced what, because (this was pre-digital) we required the producer to run the projection equipment for his/her own show, given the finickiness of the gear no one wanted to be responsible for messing up someone's show or being at the helm when the ship went down for who knows what reason. Though in our "regular" (single-image print and slide) competitions judges have never known the title nor the photographer while judging, though often an in-club judge or even an outside judge who knew some members well could spot a distinctive style or subject matter. I doubt very much that knowledge of who produced the show made any difference. What seemed to matter most is how different a show was from the other shows on view or that the judge might have seen (i.e., "wow I've never seen that before" vs "oh God yet another show about the glories of Ontario's maple trees in autumn or Ottawa's annual Tulip Festival").

In my long and bitter experience, there is no way (as a judge or as a competition organizer) you can possibly please everyone or totally "level the playing field" and honestly I believe the time and energy some folks devote to worrying about such things is absurd. Looking back on it, I think the time and energy I used to spend worrying about these things was ridiculous, and my wife agrees and finally convinced me of that, bless her. But that's only one person's opinion, probably a minority in my club and maybe also on this Forum.

All this is to say that if you're happy with your show, it would be nice if the judge(s) liked it, but if they don't, that's arguably more their loss than yours. I wouldn't worry about it. Unless you do AV for income, in which case the only judge who matters is the one who writes the cheque to purchase your show, and when was the last time you saw or heard of a photo club judge actually buying something he gave a first place ribbon to? But I'm assuming that like me you're an amateur (i.e., you do it for fun and love and not to earn your daily bread). If it is otherwise, please ignore what I said -- the marketplace is by its definition (in Western economies anyway) competitive, and fair competition does matter if your income depends on it.

[fh1805]

Eric,

At Saltburn Photographic Society, we run a competition that used to be for slide/tape sequences and is now for digital AVs. The author of each sequence is announced before the sequence runs. The competition is judged on the night by the audience using slips of paper on which to cast their anonymous vote.

During the 25 years of my membership of the Society, the audience has always chosen the best sequence (alas, not always mine!!!).

Make sure the evening is an enjoyable and fun experience and stop worrying about bias in the audience.

regards

Peter

[deskjet1uk]

Hi Eric,

Experience shows you really do need a judge who is not biased, someone from outside. At our club I know favoritism kicks in big time. I am fortunate to have won competitions, purely because of my work within photoshop, as I believe I am the most experienced at using photoshop within our club. I have had rave reviews for my sequences at our annual show which is open to the public, but equally had no success at some of the photography competitions because of a judges old time view.

Please remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder so as you are no doubt well aware we all have our favorites, be it, photo's, sequences, prints, slides, digital work and of course people/members, so I favour an outside judge and then everyone has an equal chance.

Please also be aware of the judge who has been busy judging competitions, because he might just of seen a sequence entered in another competion. We had an occasion where a judge gave 20 out of 20 for a photo at another club, that club in question were in competition with our club a couple of days later and they submitted the same photos including the one which recieved 20 out of 20, now the judge had seen this photo and therefore could not give it any lower marks so guess who one? So maybe choose sequences that have not been entered into any other competions, just in case.

Regards

Ralph

[Ed Overstreet]

Hi Dave

Not acceptable, it has to be the members work.

Regards Eric.

Hi Eric. Notwithstanding my earlier comments, it just hit me - why would it matter whether the voice-over is yours or someone else's? Are shows that have music tracks allowed in the competition? If so, does the music have to have been written and produced by the member? And if not, then why on earth does a voice-over have to be by the member? It's just a sound track, only with a voice instead of with music. Why would it be a sin to use someone else's speaking voice but not a sin to use someone else's singing voice or music performance?

Just asking. These aren't rhetorical questions; I've seen strange competition rules in my time, sometimes for good reasons (or at least what the organizers considered good reasons at the time until someone asked a "stupid question" that wasn't. But at second glance this rule, if it is a rule, seems mighty absurd to me.

[davegee]

It depends on whether it's just Eric that's concerned or the whole club.

If it's the whole club then I would have thought that a change of rules would be easy to arrange.

DaveG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

I've read all the opinions tendered. Just to repeat what is going on, after 12 months of banging away at the committee, they have agreed to hold an AV competion. The competion does not count towards the points gained in the other comp's, slides. prints & projected images. The entry is limited to 6 minutes, any subject, must contain musical background and may contain a voice over. The crunch point in the new rules, it must be anonymous. I pointed out to the committee it would not be possible to submit a voice over and remain anonymous. I posed the question to the committee and received this reply

(The decision is a voice over by the author is OK but the authors name should not be shown in the entry details, in the title slide, or in any credits.

Anonymity without using outside judges can only be fully preserved at the entry stage. Each photographer has a style, favorite subject matter, may hand write the title on the back of a print, mount prints in an individual way etc. resulting in an internal judge and some of the audience having an idea of the identity of some of the authors of some of the work )

which I suggested was a knee jerk reaction, mentioned I had asked the question on here, suggested we wait to find how others do things.

We have around 20/25 members in the club, about 5 are capable of presenting an AV entry, 3 of which are committee members. Those are the facts. Our club is afilliated to the NYSD Photographic Society, It has been mentioned by them that a group AV competition may be arranged next season. Presumably they will prepare a set of rules which will cover the subject.

I am not worried by the anonymity statement I just think it contradictory.

Thanks for your opinions.

Eric

Yachtsman1

[Len Shepherd]

(The decision is a voice over by the author is OK but the authors name should not be shown in the entry details, in the title slide, or in any credits.

Anonymity without using outside judges can only be fully preserved at the entry stage. Each photographer has a style, favorite subject matter, may hand write the title on the back of a print, mount prints in an individual way etc. resulting in an internal judge and some of the audience having an idea of the identity of some of the authors of some of the work )

Good morning Eric.

The quote is mine, on behalf of Wensleydale Camera Club committee - responding to the first of your comments.

By way of background for those interested the new AV competition (along with introducing a digital projected images competition) was initially discussed in committee and then at the AGM

As far as the Committee is aware the rest of the Club in general and the 7 others who have made an AV are content with what was agreed at the AGM. Hence this response to the first query you raised.

This first experiment AV competition is being judged by the membership as a whole. This should put every-one on a level playing field as regards any suggestion of favoritism or prejudice.

If the competition is a success an outside judge and perhaps new rules in the light of what is learned will be considered for the 2010-11 season.

Digressing for any-one wanting to know more about WCC the best of our 2009 annual competition and one of the best historical photo collection of Dales activity is on the Clubs main site at http://fp.underw.f9.co.uk/wencamerab/index.htm

We have an active Flickr group Wensleydale Camera Club.

Many compact cameras and several recent DSLR introductions have a video facility. Video clips can be added to our Flickr site!

Maybe in two years time Clubs will be discussing how to accommodate video competitions

Leonard Shepherd

Former member of probably the longest name in photography

The Aston and Erdington Audio Visual Photographic Group.

[Barry Beckham]

I say old man........This just ain't Cricket

What fun, keep this thread going, its better than TV

Here is something amusing. I have just seen an AV competition here in Queensland and I think it took me longer to read and digest all the rules and paperwork attached to the email than it would have taken me to make the sequence.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Len

Maybe I should use this forum instead of sending emails, still awaiting a reply re copyright licences.

Yachtsman1

[jfa]

Just for you Barry.....as you are loving it so much........

I will repeat the comment I made earlier,

we rely on the integrity of the judge/s. and add if you can't then get another one!

Leonard

Our club has been discussing the introduction of video competitions for sometime now and I think it will happen next year as we have a lot of members that produce digital images, AVs and video. The only concern is that AVs, (as we know them here), and video don't compete directly against each other.

Barry

Oh I so agree with you.

Yesterday the Victoraan Armature Photography Society, VAS, (the affiliation or over-body of all clubs in the state of Vitoria), sent out their rules for AV competitions between clubs which most clubs will adopt as rules for their internal competitions also and I still haven't stopped the steam coming out of my ears.

Minimum or no pan/zoom/rotate allowed.

Sound and image start and end together.

Minimal digital manipulation of the images.

1 entry / competition (even though there is more than one section)

Submit in DVD format (not EXE ....)

And so on and on.

It is going to be interesting to see these "rules" pushed by entries in the future.

I believe they want to preserve the old slide/tape style of show which was great in its day but the technology has moved on, (light years on).

[Henri.R]

'May I suggest -- and I say this as someone who used to organize, judge, and participate in AV competitions in our club but who also was instrumental in having them dropped in favour of a showcase with no commentary, scoring or awards, back in 2001 -- that, as in any artistic competition, a judge's comments and scores often tell more about the judge than about that which is being judged. In an AV competition, beyond minimal technical competence there is so much in judging and comparing shows (sometimes even literally apples and oranges ) that is inevitably arbitrary, subjective, inconsistent and sometimes infuriatingly irrational...'

'But I'm assuming that like me you're an amateur (i.e., you do it for fun and love and not to earn your daily bread). If it is otherwise, please ignore what I said -- the marketplace is by its definition (in Western economies anyway) competitive, and fair competition does matter if your income depends on it.'

Hi Ed, Eric and others,

Although being a professional, some things 'you do for fun and love' as Ed stated; so I founded a Photoclub just 30 years ago, because I thought and still think that photography and AV(slide)-shows for many people can be a very healthy way to occupy yourself in an artistic manner... And just because of this conception we decided to have no rules at all, with one rule as exception and that was: NO competion.

Well, how do you say that in English: proofing the pudding is eating it, (or something like that): the proof is that we still have 63 members, doing photography and a hardworking subgroup making digital AV shows! All this creates a sometimes critical, but nevertheless very friendly atmosphere and I'm convinced that this is just because we don't have any competion!

regards,

Henri.

[Barry Beckham]

Minimum or no pan/zoom/rotate allowed.

Sound and image start and end together.

Minimal digital manipulation of the images.

1 entry / competition (even though there is more than one section)

Submit in DVD format (not EXE ....)

They do make me laugh. They say minimal image manipulation as if they could actually tell anyway. There is one other rule they should apply.

Only unsharp and badly exposed images must be used. Any sign of good quality photography is NOT allowed.

You can almost see some rustic group sitting round a table all with their thinking caps on coming up with the rules and seeing just how much rubbish they can cram in. The sad thing is people go along with this because they don't want to upset or offend. Well, perhaps its time we did start to offend, if that is what it takes.

I have just spent 3 days at the Photographic Society of Queensland convention and heard lots of knowledgable speakers talk on a variety of subjects. It was a great event and brilliantly organised, but if I hear just one more photographer say " I like to get my photography right at the taking stage and not have to put right mistakes in Photoshop" I will poke them with a sharp stick.

All my respect for them evapourates when they say that as it shows their ignorance. I heard of one competition rule the other day where digital images have to be submitted without any manipulation at all and straight from the camera. What about Raw shooters? Do they really think this is the way to quality photography and to inspire others. Either they should change their hobby or perhaps I should.

I mean what rules does AV need.

1. All digital slide shows should be provided as an exe file to run on a PC projector at x resolution

2. Sequences should be no longer than 7 minutes

3. Any special software or projection equipment outside of 1 above must be supplied by the club/author

Do we need much else?

And here is a final thought, seeing at the film buffs tried to hold back and ban digital for so long, let us now ban them from digital AV competitions, just for spite eh

[davegee]

All my respect for them evapourates when they say that as it shows their ignorance. I heard of one competition rule the other day where digital images have to be submitted without any manipulation at all and straight from the camera. What about Raw shooters? Do they really think this is the way to quality photography and to inspire others. Either they should change their hobby or perhaps I should.

Do they apply the same rules to single imae print comps i.e. straight out of camera - no manipulation?

DaveG

[Ed Overstreet]

No manipulation? Good Lord, give us a break!

I started doing my own black and white printing about 50 years ago. I can't think of a single negative that I didn't crop in the darkroom, burn or dodge something, retouch something out of (even a dust spot?), or tweak the contrast by selecting a paper grade. Never mind what one always has to do in Photoshop with Levels and sharpening, if nothing else ...

Never mind the image compositing that was necessary back in the 19th century due to the extreme limitations of dynamic range of photographic emulsions back then. I went to a presentation by the curator emeritus of our National Gallery's photo collection where he showed a print made by one of Fox Talbot's contemporaries where the archivists have (so far) detected evidence that at least nine separate exposures were used to produce the final print.

I coordinated our annual interclub Av showcase night last year here in Ottawa, involving 19 AV shows from three clubs in the area. There was no award, not even a peoples' choice vote, and "in spite" of the lack of a trophy or awards to "motivate" the producers, we had what I think is the most impressive evening of 19 shows I've ever seen. Contrary to what some in my club claim, lots of us (me included) don't need a competition to "motivate" us to go out there and work hard at producing interesting and quality photos and AV shows.

As for feedback or validation, just listen to the audience. I (only occasionally, but sometimes) have heard the audience cheering and whistling after one of my shows, and people sometimes come up to me and tell me how much they liked a show I did (never had anyone tell me they didn't like one, but we Canadians are notoriously polite so that doesn't necessarily mean anything). What more validation or praise, or feedback, do you need other than cheers, or polite applause, or dead silence (as the case may be ). And what can you do with a trophy or a ribbon? You can't eat it, and my wife hates having the things on our mantle

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person who feels some days like he's "urinating into the wind" over this issue

[Barry Beckham]

Daveg

I don't know if it was a print competition too, just projected, but I lost interest when I heard that nonsense.

Ed

Here is my take on all of this.

These rules and regulations are another battle in someones demented war on digital photography. I don't want to/can't be bothered to learn any Photoshop work so you shouldn't either is their way of viewing the world.

Have you noticed how much they talk about not needing to know anything about Photoshop? If they don't need to use it, then shut up about it and concentrate on producing some decent photography. Why do they feel the need to continually justify not using any afterwork.

Your absolutely right about "urinating into the wind" but if we stand together perhaps the stream will start to push them back

I am getting sick and tired of this nonsense and those who utter it. They may as well hang a sign around their necks which reads.

Mediocre Photographer at work who can't be bothered.

[Ed Overstreet]

Barry, I couldn't agree more.

Maybe part of the problem is that some people actually believe the old saying, "the camera never lies," which itself is a big lie. Any photographer, regardless of what medium or equipment (s)he uses, manipulates "reality" in ways the viewer may not know. For openers, the photograher chooses where to point the camera and frame the image (and what not to include in the frame, which context may be rather relevant to the main subject), not to mention when (and when not) to trip the shutter, not to mention collapsing four-dimensional reality into two (or three, if you're using a video or movie camera), or picking a wide-angle lens that distorts relationships among things in the picture, etc. etc. The first love of my photographic life, black and white photography, shows us an image no one can see with the eye, unless they have some eye or optical-nerve disease that destroys the retina's ability to see in colour. Then there are the Wratten filters we used to adjust tonal relations in the B&W images ... etc.

You can't take a photo without manipulating something, I don't care what kind of equipment you're using or what technology you use to process the photo. Rules that prohibit manipulation might as well prohibit people from using any camera at all. But there I go again, preaching to the converted

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

There is another side to AV competition, last year I was on my clubs committee & had jumped into the AV net bigtime. At that time there was only one other member who had delved into Digital AV. In an effort to promote more interest among the members I suggested a sort of competition. The rules were very simple, use any software, your own pictures, no animation, simple fadesEtc etc. It fell on deaf ears, now 18 months later, we have our first competition planned, 6 minutes duration, your own pictures, music/ and/or voice over allowed, submit on a CD or memory stick. My reason for my origial rules was to kick start the reluctant members. We now have 7 members capable of digital AV, out of 20/25. So I suppose that's progress.

Yachtsman1

[Ed Overstreet]

There is another side to AV competition,

My reason for my origial rules was to kick start the reluctant members. We now have 7 members capable of digital AV, out of 20/25. So I suppose that's progress.

I confess that's as good a reason, maybe a better one, to have a competition as any other.

About a dozen years ago I am ashamed to admit that I said in a conversation with a friend at my club that digital photography wasn't "real" photography and I'd never do it. (Never say never ...) Two or three years later I bought my first digital camera and started playing with primitive digital AV using dynamic HTML programming in Internet Explorer (not something I'd recommend now that PTE has arrived ) and five years ago I sold off my last film camera and have been doing nothing but digital since. So you can teach an old dog new tricks, or he can teach himself those tricks, if something kick-starts him into the process. In my case it was the prospect of digital AV (and frustration and tedium of scanning a bunch of slides for my first effort, then thinking heck it would be so much easier just to take the photos on a digital camera in the first instance ...). So if a competition is what it takes to ease folks into the pleasures of digital AV (and likely digital photography will follow soon behind, unless they have a lot more patience for dealing with a film scanner than I do), that's a step in the right direction IMO. I think you're wise to keep the rules for the competition simple, but I also think it's important to keep them as non-exclusive as possible.

In our AV group, even in pre-digital days, we used to say "the one rule in AV is that there are no rules." Though of course to make things manageable for whoever runs the competition or showcase evening, there have to be some technical standards for length, show format (it has to be able to run smoothly on the club's equipment without crashing the system or the projector ), so I guess there need to be some rules ...

[deskjet1uk]

I say old man........This just ain't Cricket

What fun, keep this thread going, its better than TV

Here is something amusing. I have just seen an AV competition here in Queensland and I think it took me longer to read and digest all the rules and paperwork attached to the email than it would have taken me to make the sequence.

Barry,

Just watched England lose to south africa in the 20/20, so not laughing but your post really made me laugh, thanks.

Some camera club rules are a joke. I still say outside judges are the best way to go about things.

ralph