Image Size and Projectors

[Barry Beckham]

Image Size

I recently pondered the question of what size slide show do I make and why. I wasn’t asking the question because I didn’t know the answer, but because I was keen to hear the views of the more experienced PTE users. Many of the size/format/animation issues we used to have to grapple with have largely been sorted by Igor and his team, so the goal posts had moved quite a bit

Over the past months I have been replacing some of my older PTE tutorial disks. This involves recording new video tutorials and making PTE demos to go with those videos. Before I started I had to settle on a size for the PTE demos I would make. I wanted them to display well on all monitors and have a good shelf life too. I.e. they were big enough not to be left behind very quickly. Its only when you see a slide show played on a 1920*1200 monitor and then one at 1024*768 played on the same monitor that the difference hits you. Size isn’t everything of course, but all else being equal the larger size look impressive.

I eventually chose to make the demos at 1920*1200 to match my main Dell monitor running that same resolution. I have tested the demos on a PC that is approaching 2 years old, it is a Quad core 2.66 GHz with 4 gig of ram and a Nvidia Gforce 8600GT graphics card. These PTE demos have involved quite a bit of animation and I have been delighted with the results, smooth animations and faultless transitions.

What I also like is that the shows play back very well on my very old single core PC running 1024*768 resolution. I have a black band top and bottom due to the format mismatch, but a thin line seems to hold that in nicely. The quality of the images in the demo slide shows remains great and the animations are nearly all handled well. There is a small stutter on an isolated few, but given the age and spec of the machine, not surprising.

In summary I am finding that the 1920*1200 is a great size to work with, easily converted to HD format of 1920*1080 for DVD’s and all those issues I am fussy about are handled great.

PC Projector

Now I am in the market for a better projector, which I would be using to demonstrate both Photoshop and PTE, including the playing of the demos made at 16:10 format. I have settled on either the Epson 1725 or 1735. The 1725 remains with 4:3 format while the 1735 is capable of 16:10.

Now, the 16:10 format would match my monitor and those of many of my audience. It will match nearly all laptops and screens now sold and better reflect the image format we get from our cameras. (I believe the 1735 will also handle 4:3 as well as 16:10)

Who would like to bat around the pros and cons if my logic for a while?

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Here we go again!!!

Barry I am assuming most of your customers for your tutorials are like me, run of the mill photographers who want to improve their AV tecniques? I have two XGA projectors, the second bought in case the first failed and left me in the lurch with my existing shows. I am not a tecnology chaser, as I can't afford to be. In my area, North Yorkshire most clubs who own their own projector are still using XGA projectors, why, probably cost & there is no a valid reason to change when the use they put their projectors to is dual, first and foremost to project digital images for photographic competitions which come out of the camera at 3-2 aspect ratio, secondly to show slide shows using various types of software from PSG, PTE down to what comes with their computer. So at the moment, the new formats are not a priority. I probably speak for a large percentage of users on the forum. Call them the "Silent Majority".

Yachtsman1

[Barry Beckham]

Yaughtsman

Yes, I agree with that. I am hoping that a new projector will be donated to me, so cost isn't an issue. What is an issue is quality and the 2000:1 contrast ratio of the newer projectors against my current 400:1 is what I hope will give increased quality of the projected image.

From what I have seen so far in Australia, the quality of projectors used by clubs isn't good. As soon as I saw the Noosa Photo Club one in action I kept trying to sharpen the image, it was softer than I was used to. Another I saw was so bad I would submit any images to be projected by it.

What about the widescreen format though?

[davegee]

Barry,

I'm not sure that the choice of the Epson 1735 is a wise one?

Its native resolution is only 1280x800 and it has no HDMI interface.

What this means is that SOMETHING, be it your laptop or the projector, is going to have to resize your lovely 1920x1200 shows down to 1280x800 for projection. What a waste!

You can easily test the disadvantage of not having HDMI (on the projector) on your monitors at home by removing the HDMI cables and replacing them with VGA. The results speak for themselves.

After having done extensive testing in our area over a period of 2 years we decided on the 16:9 format, 1920x1080 projector. Look at the Epson EH-TW5000 specs for example. Optoma also make suitable projectors and supply a laptop with the correct native resolution.

I would definitely recommend that a hands on demo is essential using a laptop which has the same native resolution as the projector.

One thing that we found during the two years is that demonstrators have absolutely no idea of the requirements of photographers regarding resolution issues and had to be led by the hand and forced to demonstrate their equipment in the way that we were going to use it. Their market is HOME VIDEO and it is not quite the same thing.

You have already (it seems) decided on 1920x1080 for your DVDs - why not stick with that resolution throughout the workflow?

When BluRay becomes more readily available and in common useage no changes in the workflow will be needed.

DaveG

[fh1805]

Hi Barry,

Following on from your earlier thread, and after witnessing two of my 1024x768 sequences projected through a Panasonic HD projector, I recently changed my techniques. I am currently preparing all my images at 1920x1280 (retaining the original 3:2 aspect ratio). However, the HD format of 1920x1080 does seem to be firming up as the new "standard"; so perhaps I should actually be working the images to that resolution, instead! More thinking to do!!!!

From my limited experience, a 1024x768 image that is up-sized to 1920x by the PC-projector combination shows significant loss of image quality. A 1920x image that is down-sized to 1024x by the PC-projector combo shows only very slight (almost imperceptible) loss of quality. I'm not willing to tolerate the former but I am willing to tolerate the latter.

So... I certainly agree with your thinking on the actual image size issue. And will probably fine-tune my approach down from 1920x1280 to 1920x1080.

As for the projector, I can offer no advice as I am not likely to be in a position (financially) to buy a HD projector for several years yet. But I would have thought that, for you, in your line of business, the investment in a HD projector would be well merited.

regards,

Peter

[Barry Beckham]

DaveG

I don't connect my monitors with HDMI because my PC's do not have a HDMI connection and I rarely use a laptop to demonstrate with. At some stage I suppose I will, but for now I don't. Downsizing an image doesn't seem to be such an issue as upsizing and I don't have a problem with what it shows on screen.

My initial thought was that I wanted nothing less than 1920*1080, but I have been informed by Epson that the HD projectors are not as robust as others and are designed for home cimemas rather than for portable use.

[LumenLux]

Barry, just want to thank you for this timely thread. Yes, oft discussed, but our photo world changes, and when the issue is personal, it is the time to discuss. Before seeing your post I have been dealing with the issue myself. Sounds like my main monitor is the same as yours 1920x1200. I had about concluded that should be my own new PTE default. Your experienced opinion is very helpful. Now, if someone could so precisely suggest the best way to get the color right - I'd feel even better.

[xahu34]

...Now, if someone could so precisely suggest the best way to get the color right - I'd feel even better.

It is not quite clear to me what you mean here. Do you have problems with color management? PTE does not respect color profiles. Images used by PTE have to be converted according to the color settings of the system where the show is about to be run.

Regards,

Xaver

[Ken Cox]

ROBERT

" Now, if someone could so precisely suggest the best way to get the color right - I'd feel even better. "

i posted links to test patterns colour charts etc

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....&hl=macbeth

also set up your mnitor with greyscale here

http://www.eye4u.com/home/

btw

your moderator mail is bouncing again -- maybe you need a yahoo acct??

ken

[Barry Beckham]

I still have to buy a colour monkey calibration tool for my own monitors, but I don't think they are too far off the right colour.

I have been looking again at the HD projectors and may try for one of those.

[LumenLux]

It is not quite clear to me what you mean here. Do you have problems with color management? PTE does not respect color profiles. Images used by PTE have to be converted according to the color settings of the system where the show is about to be run.

Regards,

Xaver

I am sorry to confuse the issue. My comment is not directed to PTE program. It is directed toward monitors on which I show PTE AV's. It is a renewed pain, as I once again can not get proper/consistent color between monitor and home printer and retail print kiosk.

[LumenLux]

ROBERT

" Now, if someone could so precisely suggest the best way to get the color right - I'd feel even better. "

i posted links to test patterns colour charts etc

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....&hl=macbeth

also set up your mnitor with greyscale here

http://www.eye4u.com/home/

btw

your moderator mail is bouncing again -- maybe you need a yahoo acct??

ken

I will look into all of the above. Thank you.

[LumenLux]

I still have to buy a colour monkey calibration tool for my own monitors, but I don't think they are too far off the right colour.

I have been looking again at the HD projectors and may try for one of those.

It was my experimenting with a calibrator/monkey that launched my current round of color trouble. It just seems that dealing with printer, monitor, and I forgot - graphics card, that there are too many "moving targets."

[Barry Beckham]

This thread seems to be loosing it's waya bit.

Can I assume that no PTE experts are yet using a HD projector for their slide shows?

I and others would be interested in any real projects that have been made and projected on HD projectors

I am not entirely sure which way to jump and a discussion often opens up things you never thought of..............

[davegee]

Hi Barry,

I know of at least two PTE experts who are using 1920x1080 projectors.

One is IGOR.

The other has either not read your post or has chosen not to reply.

I can only speak from the experience of using using one (not my own) and I can't remember what your specific question was?

DaveG

[Barry Beckham]

Nothing specific, but interested in results and a little confused by Epson saying they were not designed to be transported.

I wonder if I was talking to someone who didn't really know and was simply passing on what they have been told and it is the size of the unit that they were on about and not that it is delicate

[davegee]

Hi Barry,

I can only repeat what I have already said about portability (perhaps elsewhere) - two ladies carted one (Optoma) all over the Principality with no complaiints about weight or other issues.

I can personally vouch for the quality of the images. HDMI is used for connection.

I know that a member of our CC has bought his own 1920x1080 setup with a Sony 1920x1080 laptop and has demonstrated Photoshop at an RPS event using it. I can put you in touch with him on a personal basis - he is not a member of this forum.

We are expecting delivery of our CC's projector (EPSON) in time for the September resumption and I would be able to give you more info at that time. I suspect that your needs are more pressing?

DaveG

[Barry Beckham]

Thanks

I am beginning to think that the person I spoke at Epson misunderstood my needs.

[Ken Cox]

Barry

back in win 3.1 days i had a question for epson re my laser b/w printer -- the guy i was talking to wanted to know why i kept my printer on all the time -- it took +- 2 mins to warm up from a cold start - i told him i when i wanted to print i wanted it then

so maybe you got the same guy as me

ken

[Ian]

Hello all

Ken suggested I chip in. We (ie Wantage Camera Club) replaced our projector some time last year. The big decision was whether to go for a Canon model that projeted at 1400x1050, or to opt for the HD widescreen format 1920x1080. We went for the 1920x1080 option , and bought an Optoma HD800X - see http://www.optoma.co.uk/uploads/brochures/...XLV-B-en-gb.pdf

This is connected by either a DVI lead to our aging Shuttle, or by an hdmi lead to my Alienware laptop. The image quality is stunning, to the extend that in our main clubroom we have painted the wall with projection-quality paint so that we can obtain a 12 foot image. I also use the projector when doing shows and AV Days, and have used it succesfully everywhere from Lampeter in west Wales to Clacton on the East Coast. Its larger than the usual projectors, but still entirely portable.

The projector is used with a variety of computers, and the hdmi connection is noticeably better than other leads, and doesn't seem to suffer any loss of quality even when a long lead is used - eg 10 metres.

We use a ColorMunki to profile the various computers that get attached to it, with varying degrees of success. The profile it gave our Shuttle was very good and that combination gives a very accurate colour balance. Doing the same thing on my laptop however has so far resulted in an over-contrasty image with over-saturated colours. This laptop is the one we have to use to run AV shows though, as the Shuttle struggles with 1920x1080 dissolves. I'm going to have another go with the ColorMunki tomorrow and see what it comes up with this time.

Ian

[Ken Cox]

thks Ian

this should help Barry

ken

[Barry Beckham]

Yes, that sounds positive, it's a funny thing but I was talking to a few clubs here in Australia about trying to find a wall to project onto so we can get a much better sized picture.

I recall doing a demo at the Maltings in Ely Cambridgeshire and using their cinema screen to project onto. It was an enormous image and one thing that impressed me at the time was the clarity and brightness of that image.

HD does seem to be the way that was my original first thought, but some doubts crept in after talking to Epson.

Your right Ken, we always assume we are talking to someone who understands our needs and our questions.

Perhaps not