Almark Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Hi Folks, this basically the same as the other Norway show only this one has some narration. This is the first time I have ever added a narration to a show and I must tell you that I found it much harder than I had anticipated. Over 6 hours to create 6 minutes! My first script lasted 12 minutes so I had to cut it in half. Then I had to learn how to use Audacity, but getting the timings just right with PTE I found really difficult.I am not sure if I like the result, maybe I am just sick hearing my own voice, but I am not sure the narration adds much to the pics with just the music. All comments, feedback, ideas and suggestions are most welcome.Updated, thanks to your help almost all of the hiss is gone:http://www.almark.net/photos/norway.zip [20 mb] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh1805 Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Hi Mark,I confess, I didn't download the music only version, so I've nothing to compare it to. Having said that, for a first attempt at adding voice-over to your sequence you've done a creditable job.Firstly, one point unrelated to the voice-over, as I key this in your sequence is still on-screen showing the final slide. It's a good idea to set "Close show after last slide" on the Main tab of Project Options.Now to the soundtrack. You did right in holding back the music so it didn't drown out your voice, but you seemed to hold back the voice over as well. I am assuming that when you were working in Audacity you had two distinct tracks on the go: one carrying the music (great choice, by the way!) and the other carrying the voice-over. Are you aware that you can control each track's output independently by using the "gain" controls. These are the sliders marked "- +" just under the Mute and Solo buttons. To get a rough mix proceed as follows:- Mute all tracks except the voice- Play this and set the level to something suitable- Unmute the music and lower the gain on it to one of -15dB, -18dB or -21dB (according to your perception of good sound balance)- Play the music and voice-over together and adjust the music gain as required.- When happy with the settings, File Export As WAV to preserve detail then again ...As MP3 for compactness- Use the MP3 version as your PTE soundtrack.This technique works well when you have voice-over almost constantly throughout the sequence - as you have here. And this leads me on to my next comment. Just as one would vary the pace of images and the type and duration of transitions to create variety and interest in the sequence, so should you vary the soundtrack a little more. If you feel up to expending some more effort on it, cut out some more of the voice-over so that you have some short inner sequences of just music and slides. On these you can then set about increasing the gain on the music. However, this cannot be done simply by adjusting the gain slider. That sets the output level for the entire track duration.To modify the gain on just selected parts of the track you need to use the Envelope Tool (one of the six little icons towards the top left of the Audacity window). You then position points along the track by clicking on the blue line and dragging down or up as required. A little experimentation will soon make things clear. As before, leave the voice-over as the base sound level and adjust everything else to it.You have one big, big plus going for you: your lovely soft Irish brogue. It's a natural for voice-over work.If you haven't already done so, you might like to take a look at my Audacity User Guide which is posted on the Tutorial forum. It's still very much "work-in-progress" but I hope it will help you.I hope you find these comments constructive; that's how I intend them to be.You can find a sequence of mine (LestWeForget.exe) that I posted last year at this link: http://www.mediafire.com/?29c0niyaxyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Hi Peter, and thanks for your comprehensive reply. I must check out your tutorial, maybe I should have done this before I started - but you know how it is - I simply got stuck in.I found I had to reduce the gain of the music as far as it would go, and even then had to use the envelop tool to reduce it more at one particular stage. Clearly that was because I didn't apply any gain to the voice. Doh! back to the drawing board as they say.The more narration I cut out the more I think it works without any narration. But I will have another go at it.Thanks again for feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Peter, I followed your instructions carefully and they made a big difference to the sound. I have also cut out a lot of the narration, now there are just four short pieces with intervals.Updated, thanks for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Beckham Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I think both versions of this show work well for a number of reasons.The choice of music is perfect; it sounds like a cross between the film music from Jurassic Park and Titanic and is a perfect choice.Probably the most important part is the length. It’s fairly short, but just right in my view.The place and images are interestingThe Voice over does explain a few things too.Your voice is perfect for the voice over and I wouldn't have any comment on the need for more or less of that, because that is largely a personal choice. You will never please all of the people all of the time, so don't worry too much about trying.You are suffering a little quality drop in the voice/sound with a noticeable hiss in the background and I know many struggle with this. I invested in quite an expensive microphone and pre-amp for voice recording, but then I do a lot of it. I know some people seem to get great quality from a standard PC microphone and others don't. I suppose it is either the microphone quality or the sound card, perhaps a little of both.You also have the same issues I had a few days ago. How to present the show to those who have higher resolution monitors. You have chosen to display your show in a frameless window. Those running 1024*768 will not notice anything, but those on 1280*1024 and higher see around the edge of the show.It’s not a disaster, but we will then see anything that was already on our screen around the edge of your show after we fire it up. This does lower the visual appeal a little. The whole point of creating a show is to present our images so that they flow along and create a mood. The only thing you could do is add a 1280*1024 frame for those on a higher res monitors. At least then you get to decide 100% how we see your show and its not a lengthy thing to do.I know some PTE users create their images bigger than they need and allow PTE to downsize them to fit the monitor they are being played on. That usually leaves black bands around the top and bottom and is not one of my favourite ways to present the show.The show doesn't end correctly, but I assume this second version is a work in progress.I enjoyed it.B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh1805 Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Hi Mark,Norway v5 is much better than v4!As is so often the case with AV work, less is more. You rarely need to have voice-over on every image - especially on images as full of impact as yours. If I was to build a sequence like this, I would be letting the music and images convey the mood (as they do so brilliantly in your sequence) and using the voice-over to convey historical fact and the emotions that were aroused in me at the time. You are very definitely heading that direction with this version.Your next challenge in AV is going to be the production of good, clean, noise-free voice-over. There's a small but noticeable amount of hiss present in your voice-over. It is unlikely that you can remove this via Audacity as you will, almost certainly, introduce some degree of distortion into your voice. Take at look at the thread below for some discussions on the subject of adding voice-over and natural sound.http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7677I look forward to your next AV sequence with eager anticipation. You seem to have a natural talent for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Barry, thank you for your feedback, it is great to know that I am on the right line. I set it to run at 1024x768 as this is the size it will be played at my local camera club, my target audience. However I should have considered the audience here, and that was discourteous of me, I apologise for that. (I was also influenced that when I set it to full screen it doesn't play or preview properly on my laptop 1920x1200.)Peter, thanks again for taking the time to download and view. Now that I have cut the narration down it will be much easier to start over. I have also borrowed a different mic and that should improve things.Again, thank you both for your feedback, as a newcomer to PTE (and this forum) I have been most impressed with speed and quality of the constructive criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 One last attempt, version 6, almost all of the hiss is gone (I think). I have deleted the earlier attempts.http://www.almark.net/photos/norway.zipThank you all for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh1805 Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 You're a quick learner, Mark!Any suggestions I make now are very much in the area of "fine tuning". Can I suggest that you now watch and "listen" - really listen - to the sequence? There were one or two places where, with a little adjustment to your slide timings you could get some really good effects. The one that stuck in my mind was the image of the log fire and the ornate fireback. Close to this on the music was a point where the brass section comes in strongly. I felt that you should try and bring the log fire in "in sync" with the entry of the brass.In many respects that's what slides with music is all about: identifying the points in the music where you need to have an image change in order for the one to emphasise the other. If the musical point is abrupt have an abrupt slide transition; if it is more gradual, have a more gradual transition.The other adjustment I would suggest, which Barry Beckham hinted at in his comments on the previous version, would be to alter the ending of the sequence so that the credit slide fades in along side the music fading out.Another suggestion: why not add a title to the opening slide? And one final suggestion: to smooth the start/end of the sequence, why not add a black slide at each end and give it 5 seconds of silence?Whatever your decisions, it's your work at the end of the day - and very good work it is, too! You'll not be letting yourself down when you show it at your camera club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thanks Peter, I think I will take on much of your advice. Of course it means playing about with it again!Fire and brass bit? I will listen carefully for it and snyc it as best I can.The ending, I wanted the big ending of the music to sync with the sunset pic, I will have a close look at it.Title slide, I deliberately left this blank so that folk would wonder what is all about. I thought the first series of images would carry their interest.Start and end, good idea, i think that would improve things.Again thanks for taking the time to download the updates and testing them for me. Your help is much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Peter and Barry, all suggestions have been taken on board - to the best of my ability. A friend ran my voice over track through his Sony Soundforge, with the noise reduction plug in - and that helped it quite a bit. I have had enough AV's for a while - you know when you are overdoing it when the AV music keeps you awake at night ;-)Again, thanks for you help folks. I'll let you know how it goes down at my local Camera Club and AV Group, if you are interested.Zip updatedhttp://www.almark.net/photos/norway.zip [20MB] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpeterso Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Hi Folks, this basically the same as the other Norway show only this one has some narration. Updated, thanks to your help almost all of the hiss is gone:http://www.almark.net/photos/norway.zip [15mb]Hi Mark -I've just listened and watched your updated show on Norway. Personally, I like the narration. I can imagine how you must have struggled with it. But it turned out pretty nice and definitely adds to the show. Someday I'd like to get into it myself, but I can't figure out how to get around not liking the sound of my voice. Good job.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfa Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Just watched and enjoyed your final "Norway" show. I have followed the development of it, watching each version up to the final, and I have found the exercise informative.The process of "working up" a show can often be time consuming and get to the point where we can't see the hills for the mountains, this is where the input from another viewer can be very helpful. There are some very minor improvements that could still be made to your AV, (this is almost always the case with any show), but one very important judgement we must learn to make is when to stop. This is something I often struggle with and I think you have made the correct decision on this point.You have produced a very enjoyable show and I look forward to seeing your next effort, thanks Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Dave, John, thank you both for your kind comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhwarner Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Someday I'd like to get into it myself, but I can't figure out how to get around not liking the sound of my voice. DaveHi Dave, Check this out and play the attached mp3 file for a sample: http://www.nextup.com/index.htmlVoiceovers.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Dave, I found my voice, especially my accent to be harsh and very 'Belfast'. Others have said not so, indeed above folk refer to it as soft Irish, but that's not what I hear. I suppose it is because I hear my voice from my head and when it is recorded and played back it sounds so different to me. I am sure this is the case for most people. Folk from Northern Ireland tend to talk very quick and so I deliberastly slowed my speech down. My wife, when she listened to the show, thought I was 'putting on' a posh accent! You can't win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhwarner Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Mark,Thank you so much for sharing this lovely presentation. I was awed and inspired by the beauty of a place I am unlikely to have the opportunity to visit in person. The music and the narration were, in my opinion, just right and the photos were well-chosen. I must admit to having had goose bumps at the end. Well done and most enjoyable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LumenLux Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hi Mark -I just viewed your latest version with your vocal interpretation of Norway. It sounds good to me. As you may know, voice tracks on AV's done in America are really quite rare. At least in my circle of experience. That doesn't mean I don't like them. I had some years ago quite a bit of discussion with Peter Coles as to the necessity or benefit of same. In the end, I think some of us are not eager to allocate our precious (read "limited") time required to do a really credible job. Especially if we feel our AV purpose is nearly met, sometimes totally met, without the voice over. I think your dive into the voice over world comes over well.As to the appeal of your voice - For me I really enjoy all the "old world" versions of English - if I can understand the voice. Even with my new hearing aids I can not always understand all the voiceovers that I run into. Maybe that is why I enjoyed your's so much. I can understand it very clearly and the background soundtrack is not too loud. I think I have only used a spoken voice in three of my many PTE presentations. One of the three used my voice but intentionally digitally modified to a sort of computerized child-talk. On the other two, my equipment did not help, but I had a very hard time coming up with intonation that I thought sounded natural. Sometimes I convince myself that it ended up sounding OK, but my family usually laughs when they hear my voice inserted into the more professional music track. On the other hand, they are usually very complimentary about the photography. Perhaps that is the ultimate reason that I have not done more with the spoken word in my AV projects.Thanks for sharing both your presentation and your creative experience. And thanks also to the audio-experienced users who have been helpful in this topic. The irony of this for me is that my path to PTE came because after trying 30+ early photo presentation programs, I found PTE, which could indeed, handle a voice track on top of the sound track. In that early stage of the industry, in my seeking, PTE was certainly the leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almark Posted February 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Mary, goosebumps eh! You need to close that window ;-)LumenLux, thank you for your kind comments and interesting info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grassy_Knollington Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Enjoyed this very much Almark. I served at HQ AFNORTH, Kolsaas Mountain, (near Oslo) Norway 1989 - 1992. Your voice over was spot on.Thanks for the re-kindled memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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