For Barry B

Lin Evans · October 3, 2009

These will get you started....

Best regards,

Lin

morturn · October 3, 2009

Hi Lin

What do you mean by ‘competitive’? Are these shows that have been entered in competitions and won awards?

thedom · October 3, 2009

Hi Lin,

I am not sure to undestand.

I watched 6 or 7 of the slideshows and in my opinion, they are good examples of what should not be done for quality slideshows. :unsure:

Lin Evans · October 3, 2009

See my answer to theDom. It has "nothing" to do with slideshow competition but is about the use of animation and effects with competitive "products".

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin
What do you mean by 'competitive'? Are these shows that have been entered in competitions and won awards?

Lin Evans · October 3, 2009

Sorry for any confusion. This post was only for Barry and in regards to an ongoing discussion about the fact that people are using "animation" in their slideshows. These are "NOT" shows which have been (to my knowledge) entered in any competition nor do they represent in any way my opinion of what constitutes either a quality or non-quality slideshow. They are randomly selected shows representing what users of competing products (Proshow and MemoriesOnTV, etc.) are asking for and doing with animation and effects.

Barry decided to begin an off-topic discussion about the quality and content of a demo show example I posted specifically for users to "stress test their video and system resources" with and constructed of portions of various past demos to demonstrate some of the effects possible with PicturesToExe 6.0. Barry has apparently not seen the use of animation in very many slideshows and I informed him that animation and effects are some of the most frequently asked for features by users of competing presentation slideshow products. Do not confuse the word competing with "competition." This is about the use of animation and effects with users of competitive "products" not about slideshow competition.

To understand what this is all about you would have to follow the discussion here:

http://www.picturest...showtopic=10652

I want to move the off-topic discussion of what constitutes an aesthetically pleasing slideshow and whatever else about the appropriateness or not of using animation and effects away from my thread about stress testing the video card and here where it has a venue more appropriate for the purpose. The other thread is going far off topic which is both confusing to the reader and detracts badly from whatever value my original post there might have.

Any further discussion of what may or may not constitute a "proper" or aesthetically pleasing presentation slideshow should be continued here rather than in the other thread.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,
I am not sure to undestand.
I watched 6 or 7 of the slideshows and in my opinion, they are good examples of what should not be done for quality slideshows.

Barry Beckham · October 3, 2009

Lin

My appologies I never picked up on this thread, just followed your link on the other one. I am not used to them moving around and wasn't paying attention. Please move the other post here if you wish.

However, we may be at cross purposes here

This post was only for Barry and in regards to an ongoing discussion about the fact that people are using "animation" in their slideshows. These are "NOT" shows which have been (to my knowledge) entered in any competition nor do they represent in any way my opinion of what constitutes either a quality or non-quality slideshow. They are randomly selected shows representing what users of competing products (Proshow and MemoriesOnTV, etc.) are asking for and doing with animation and effects.

I understand that PTE has to move with the competition and I have never had any issues with that. I am not against all animation for some daft reason. What I said, or tried to say was that what I have seen in some animations are tacky and do nothing for the slide show appeal and I asked where these techniques were being used, not in the context of competing software, I am not interested in that. You can split hairs about PSG or PSP but the fact remains a butterfly jerking accross the screen in a stills AV is WRONG. If it must be done at least use PTE where it will be smooth.

I keep saying this, but my interest is what I would call pictorial AV and the vast majority of slide shows posted here and beachbrook are that type of show. If the aim of an individual is to reach a wider audience and try to appeal to that audience, some of what I see has no place in that slide show. I don't believe that is just a narrow view I hold and that is why I said.

Point me to where I can see this sort of technique used, but perhaps I should of qualified that and said show me where this technique is being used in any slide show that is above average or has been credited in some way.

Barry Beckham · October 3, 2009

I have just watched a slide show that stands head and shoulders over anything I have seen for quite a while. It has animation and some special effects, but they work. They work because they are superbly done, they are added in moderation and in keeping with the overall quality of the show.

The show also tells a story and I didn't need any commentary to help that along. The sequence captures atmosphere and some emotion too and it filled my PC screen. It was impressive, not just because of size, but due to the quality of the images, the choices of images and the whole audio visual experience.

The soundtrack was perfect, balanced and right in keeping with the subject. There were a couple of long zooms out that generally I don't care much for, but I don't like them because all those I have seen go on and on and on and on. This didn't, the balance here was just right and again in keeping with the images and the message the author was putting accross.

It was evident that tender loving care was put into making this sequence and it shows. The transitions were varied, but the right choice was made every time and even the special effect between some images worked too, again due to the subject and the treatment of the slide show by the author.

This is what I want to see on the PTE forum, something that can inspire me to sit up and take notice, not reach for the escape button because the animation is tacky and out of place.

If this sequence does not win some accreditation then there ain't no justice. It probably already has.

Made with PTE of course

La Creation by Jean-Charles Pizolatto - If I had a hat I would take it off to you Jean a super show.

Barry Beckham · October 4, 2009

I think what I have seen from this list proves my point

Lin Evans · October 4, 2009

Hi Barry,

I don't think your point needed "proving." I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that there are lots of poorly used animations as well as poor animations out there in slideshows. What you said originally, and I quote was:

So where are all these effects used, I never seem to download a slide show and see any, why is that?

Now you know. You have "now" seen numerous slideshows which are using animation effects. My point was, and still is, that users of presentation slideshows both use and ask for animations and effects. For a presentation slideshow software to be competitive it must provide a way to make these and they must be demonstrated so that potential user realize the the software can be used to create them.

Fortunately for PTE, the ability is there to both create and use a variety of special effects and animations should the slideshow author so desire. Not only can PTE be used to create and display special effects and animations but as you yourself mentioned, it can do them better than the competition.

When and "whether" to use them is quite another issue.

Best regards,

Lin

Barry Beckham · October 5, 2009

Lin

Yes I did say that, but I was expecting to see the odd show something like La Creation. I went through about 8 of those shows you gave be a link to, but none that I could run to the end I am afraid. They just use animation for the sake of it and the shows are only of interest to the authors family.

Perhaps I made too many assumptions and didn't explain myself correctly. I really am not against these effects when they are used extremely well, but La Creation aside, I don't see very many.

Yes PTE can and should remain competitive (and it does), yes it should include all the animation effects we see and more I expect. Ultimately does need to have some sound editing added too. I am happy for PTE to evolve in any way Igor sees fit. I suppose I just get a little weary of seeing constant demos and very few slide shows with that wow factor from the worlds best slide show software forum.

I have a sneeking suspicion that I am far from alone in these views, but most people just keep their head down and say nothing.

In a nutshell I need some inspiration some times and in the photographic world we get that from each other. That is what clubs are all about, but I almost never get inspired. Perhaps that means my interpretaion of AV is now too narrow.

Barry Beckham · October 10, 2009

I went to an AV competition the other night and watched the winners and HC's from a competition. There were about 15 AV shows in all, many of which contained animation and some where made with PSG.

I guess 10 of the sequences contained some animation, and not one of them projected correctly without jerking across the screen. It is quite off putting on a big screen.

Beware those of you entering AV competitions, if your keen on animation, you might be quite disappointed what the judges and audience may see of your show.

I tried to suggest that next year a desktop PC is used, but laptops seem to be all the rage these days. Can't think why really.

JRR · October 11, 2009

Barry:

I know exactly what you mean about shows being jerky when shown at judging (and other places)

PSG we have found is frequently the most guilty of this.

But even for PTE, the projector can also create problems (this has been discussed at great length in another forum posting), but most frequently it is the computer running the shows.

To my mind AV producers should always check out the computer/projector combo their shows are going to be shown on ahead of time if they are to be presented publicly. That is one reason I am still back in the dark ages using bare animations if any at all.

Where possible I try to only show my AVs on my own equipment (laptop/projector) or at least on equipment I know and trust.

Of course the fact that my creativity does not extend much beyond bare animations is part of this equation :D , but I have seen enough other examples to suggest always testing out shows ahead if possible.

Barry Beckham · October 11, 2009

Using your own equipment is a good idea if you can do it, but its a shame to see the shows like that after the effort put into them.

No-one would accept this degrading of images in a stills competition, but with AV they do so with a shrug as though it is inevitable

davegee · October 12, 2009

Barry,

As much thought needs to be put into the purchase of the laptop as the purchase of the projector.

This is not always possible, but we matched our 1920x1080 Epson projector with a (high end) Sony 1920x1080 Laptop.

I have tried some pretty demanding PTE 1920x1080 shows on the combination with no adverse animation problems and viewing from 10M away on a 3M (WIDE) screen is a good viewing experience.

DG

Barry Beckham · October 12, 2009

If you don't mind me asking, what did you have to pay for that high end laptop

October 13, 2009

Hi Barry

I got a quote for a high spec laptop from a custom builder & included the best graphics card available & it came to £1800.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1.

Barry Beckham · October 13, 2009

Eric

See, that seems rather a high price to me. The last time I needed a PC to take to demonstrations I ended up buying a tower rather than a laptop as the prices quoted were about what you have said.

To get a laptop that would handle the raw files I use in demos and all the animation in PTE. I discovered I would have to pay a lot more for a laptop what I would for a Tower as you have confirmed here. These days you would get a very respectable tower PC for £1800. It was a few years ago since I did this research, but I seem to recall I got a tower half the price of the laptop and with a superiour power.

Now I appreciate you can't tuck a tower PC under your arm and take it on a flight, but my demos are done by car as we have lots of other stuff to take, so the size wasn't an issue. A car full of kit is a car full of kit whether you have a tower or a laptop, it doesn't make a heap of difference.

I am just not a big fan of laptops mainly for that reasons, plus the keyboards are mostly black and hard to see in a darkened room when your giving a demo, even with a light. The keys are smaller too and every laptop I seem to have bought works well with the battery for 12 months and then needs power hookup all the time because the battery is shot. I checked the cost of a new battery once and got the fright of my life.

On top of that I have seen a lot of people doing demos and some get in a right twist using a laptop, that I don't seem to fall into using a desktop. Most laptop users just go out and buy a laptop, they don't check up to see if the machine is up to the job, they assume it is, but my experience the other night tells me there is a huge gap between your £1800 machine and what most people/clubs are using.

If I were about to spend that sort of money for a demo machine I would put it into a small toer and screw a handle on the top

davegee · October 13, 2009

Barry,

The middle of the range here:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1730676890.1255425781@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfiadeiigeflifcflgceggdhhmdgmh.0&page=ProductList&category_oid=-27749&show_all=true#SONY:(any):(any):(any):(any):300:2850:PageNo_0:SortOrder_DOWN

would possibly give you what you want - you would need to try it to see if it comes up to your demanding requirements.

You are correct that a specification like that seen in any of these models would be cheaper in a tower, but what you are paying for is the portability etc which you say that you can cope with in a tower. I wouldn't dream of trying to take my desktop out on the road but a purpose built tower with portability in mind - that's different.

Your choice.

My Sony Vaio is extremely quiet and, if I were using it for the same purpose as you, it would be much more of a stripped down model (software-wise) and would not have the obligatory anti-this, anti-that necessary in a machine connected to and used on the internet. Where I would agree with you is that I use my laptop mainly for Internet and e-mail use, keeping my main machine completely clear of the Internet and thus faster.

Once again, different brands suit different people - I happen to like Sony.

You are also correct in what you say about batteries, but you wouldn't use a tower on a battery power - why use a laptop on a battery (for the sort of demos you do)? I have noticed that using most laptops on battery can mean a drop in speed, especially with a USB drive connected. It's another consideration.

All of this is IMHO etc - I'll go my way - you go yours .

DG

October 13, 2009

Barry

The reasons you mentioned made me look at tower alternatives, a cube which at 350mm cubed are a viable alternative to a tower, and unlike a laptop are relatively easy to upgrade. You can buy a cube case with a carrying handle, so if you can manage a show without a monitor just a keyboard & mouse and speakers, I would investigate a cube. The customiser I mentioned could supply the cube I specced for £1100 about 2 months ago, which was a £700 saving on the laptop. As soon as Windows 7 has been approved by WNsoft I will be saving my pennies.

BTW my Samsung G15 laptop cost £640 2 years ago & is oK up to PTE 5.6 but show signs of distress with 6.

However, why do you need a high end machine if you don't use animation?

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

Lin Evans · October 13, 2009

Hi Eric,

Be certain that the cube can accommodate a sufficiently large power supply to drive the necessarily powerful video card.

I discovered when I ordered a Dell Inspiron 530 Desktop with the largest power supply available for it that it was insufficient to drive the nVidia 8800 GT video card. At that time, the nVidia 8800 GT was close to the top in terms of performance, but now it rests well below half way down the list with a rating of 949 compared to over 2023 for a top end nVidia GTX 285 card.

The more powerful video cards generally require at least a 500 watt or greater power supply (I installed a 750 watt one in my Inspiron) and also must have connectors to furnish power to the card itself. Smaller, less powerful video cards draw all needed power from the BUS. The larger video cards also may take a couple slots away from the motherboard. They don't "use" two slots, but their size makes it impossible to fit another card into an adjacent slot.

This may or may not be an issue for the "cube" but it's worth investigating early in the decision making process rather than later.

Best regards,

Lin

Barry
The reasons you mentioned made me look at tower alternatives, a cube which at 350mm cubed are a viable alternative to a tower, and unlike a laptop are relatively easy to upgrade. You can buy a cube case with a carrying handle, so if you can manage a show without a monitor just a keyboard & mouse and speakers, I would investigate a cube. The customiser I mentioned could supply the cube I specced for £1100 about 2 months ago, which was a £700 saving on the laptop. As soon as Windows 7 has been approved by WNsoft I will be saving my pennies.
BTW my Samsung G15 laptop cost £640 2 years ago & is oK up to PTE 5.6 but show signs of distress with 6.
However, why do you need a high end machine if you don't use animation?
Regards Eric
Yachtsman1

Laszlo K · October 13, 2009

Barry!

I got frustrated with my midiocre Toshiba and decided to bite the bullet.

Got a costum built Laptop from EUROCOM and they build portable desktops ( actually they can put 3 HD in the unit )It is a rocket. JPD's project seamless on it, and my stuff with full resolution with WAV audio has no hick-up.

Yes, power counts, but cost some $ . I was totaly fed up that my club can not project PTE's in the proper way, now I take my laptop to do it.

There is no cheap way to get what you want.

The cost? $ 3 1/2 grand Canadian.

Laszlo

Hi Eric,
Be certain that the cube can accommodate a sufficiently large power supply to drive the necessarily powerful video card.
I discovered when I ordered a Dell Inspiron 530 Desktop with the largest power supply available for it that it was insufficient to drive the nVidia 8800 GT video card. At that time, the nVidia 8800 GT was close to the top in terms of performance, but now it rests well below half way down the list with a rating of 949 compared to over 2023 for a top end nVidia GTX 285 card.
The more powerful video cards generally require at least a 500 watt or greater power supply (I installed a 750 watt one in my Inspiron) and also must have connectors to furnish power to the card itself. Smaller, less powerful video cards draw all needed power from the BUS. The larger video cards also may take a couple slots away from the motherboard. They don't "use" two slots, but their size makes it impossible to fit another card into an adjacent slot.
This may or may not be an issue for the "cube" but it's worth investigating early in the decision making process rather than later.
Best regards,
Lin

Barry Beckham · October 13, 2009

Dave

I would be very nervous about those mid priced machines, tried loads in the Uk that were rubbish and what is the point of getting the bare level you need. One upgrade to PTE or Photoshop and your now lagging behind.

Eric

I like to demo with full size files so that people can see things done in the real world, not a PC that appears to be like lightening because the demonstrator is using 2 MB images. Open a Canon 1Ds Mk3 file at 16 bit and use smart objects and 3-4 layers and your up to 400mb + My current towers all do this regularly with little problem. My demo machine also doubles as the one I use for recording tutorials so it needs to run video grabbing and Photoshop easily. Your also right I don't do a lot of animation, but if and when I do it has to be faultless or I find it unacceptable. Audio visual to me is the smooth flow of images anything not animated super smooth should be discarded in my view. I want the flexibilty to do it when I want to and have it right.

Lazlo

That sounds all very well, but what sells for $3500 in US or Canada usually sells for £3500 in the UK. Brits could never really understand that and Australia seems a bit more expensive for this type of kit. Unit costs I suppose.

Having said all that I have been asked to do a couple of one day demos in Adelaide and that is over 2000 kilometers away so a plane trip it would have to be. I would have little choice but to use my current laptop and make sure I didn't put it under too much strain.

Laszlo K · October 14, 2009

Barry

Then you will have to take some very clean and crisp images for your PTE and resize them to 1024 or even 8-900 and see how will it run. See how the projected image looks at that resolution. It will definetly run smoother without the jerkiness.

I would resize the lot, than swap the images with the originals, with the same filename PTE would not complain at all and see.

With batch resize will take no time. You can always reverse the whole thing.

Laszlo

Dave
I would be very nervous about those mid priced machines, tried loads in the Uk that were rubbish and what is the point of getting the bare level you need. One upgrade to PTE or Photoshop and your now lagging behind.
Eric
I like to demo with full size files so that people can see things done in the real world, not a PC that appears to be like lightening because the demonstrator is using 2 MB images. Open a Canon 1Ds Mk3 file at 16 bit and use smart objects and 3-4 layers and your up to 400mb + My current towers all do this regularly with little problem. My demo machine also doubles as the one I use for recording tutorials so it needs to run video grabbing and Photoshop easily. Your also right I don't do a lot of animation, but if and when I do it has to be faultless or I find it unacceptable. Audio visual to me is the smooth flow of images anything not animated super smooth should be discarded in my view. I want the flexibilty to do it when I want to and have it right.
Lazlo
That sounds all very well, but what sells for $3500 in US or Canada usually sells for £3500 in the UK. Brits could never really understand that and Australia seems a bit more expensive for this type of kit. Unit costs I suppose.
Having said all that I have been asked to do a couple of one day demos in Adelaide and that is over 2000 kilometers away so a plane trip it would have to be. I would have little choice but to use my current laptop and make sure I didn't put it under too much strain.

Barry Beckham · October 14, 2009

Lazlo

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here, I don't have any issues with my shows running at 1920*1200.

I was just giving others the heads up that most laptops owned by clubs are not up to showing their animated slide shows as I witnessed at a recent AV competition. Some of the animation was hopeless because it was PSG.

Then the debate moved over to laptops in general.

davegee · October 14, 2009

Hi Barry,

I promise to inform you the moment that it lets us down in any way.

DG

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